[Ty Johnston]

From time to time I see a blog post or a FB post or some kind of post out there on the Net somewhere that talks about or asks about indie writers and advertising. Should they do it? Is it worth it? Will it pay off? Where to do it?

I can't answer these questions for you. I can't offer you numbers of exactitude to inform you about where and when you should be doing your advertising, or shouldn't be.

But as a former media person (not sales side, but still ...), I can tell you this: Advertising doesn't work that way.

What do I mean by this?

I mean, advertising generally doesn't pay for itself, at least not immediately. Yes, sometimes it does, but most often it does not. Wondering whether or not advertising will pay for itself is kind of beside the point (though obviously everyone would like their advertising to pay for itself). Advertising is generally meant to make consumers familiar with a product, not necessarily to drive them out to buy the product immediately. Advertising should be more part of a writer's long-term plan than an immediate let's-make-our-money-back-today plan.

Will advertising help you? That's for you to decide. My personal opinion is that advertising once in a single place will not do anyone much good, at least not in the long run, but multiple ads in multiple places spaced out over a period of time might help an indie writer draw an audience. This could also become quite expensive, but we work with what we can.

Now, before somebody pipes up that they advertised on some site and made back their money and then some ... yes, it happens, but it's generally not the norm. You got lucky. Maybe you hit a hot site at just the right time. Maybe Oprah saw your ad and loves your book. Maybe you just have a darn good book. Consider yourself fortunate. For every indie writer this happens to there are dozens if not hundreds who have spent money that did not come back to them, at least not in a short span of time. And for every indie writer who made their money back on a single advertisement, how are they selling six months down the road? Good? Bad?

Remember that advertising for a relatively unknown writer is not about a single title, not necessarily even about a series. It's about your name, your byline, your brand.

Advertising should be just one part of a larger marketing campaign. Advertising can help, but it shouldn't rest on its own.

 

[Cherise]

Tell us more!

What should be the other parts of an indie author's marketing plan, in addition to long-term brand advertising?

 

[A.A]

I used to work for a large media company, and while I didn't sell the advertising myself, I did write a lot of the copy and know what you're talking about. Big companies advertise for exposure, brand recognition etc.

And it's a very good point.

But - I don't think most indie authors have the kind of cash to spread around like that. I personally think that best way for an indie writer to create a viable income is to study the market and write the most commercial book that fits within their chosen genre. A very commercial book that sells well becomes its own billboard, its own advertising, its own marketing.

It's true that a single ad that does well may not make the author any money three months down the track, but that could also happen with a campaign of brand-recognition advertising. I also would like to hear more about how you think brand-recognition advertising could be implemented in a way that could be financially viable for an indie author.

 

[Lisa Grace]

I know when I worked in marketing it took five exposures before the customer even perceived seeing or hearing it once. Doing a layered approach where you advertise on sites so customers get at least five exposures will help with your brand recognition. For instance, I know who James Patterson is, and I've bought one or two of his books, because I know his reputation for thrillers and I ran across his books when I was in a buying mood.
Hugh Howey, I know who he is, and I've purchased his WOOL  omnibus. I plan on getting the sequels, Second and Third Shift, but haven't yet. What will happen is I will see some mention of it somewhere (when I'm in a buying and reading mood) and I'll buy it.

This is how advertising works. It's not an immediate payoff, but a layering so when the time is right, the customer will buy. Coke runs commercials constantly. Do they expect you to drop everything and run out and buy a Coke? No. But if you're thirsty, and in a convenience store, all that marketing may kick in and you pick the Coke over all the other drinks.

 

[JRTomlin]

I know when I worked in marketing it took five exposures before the customer even perceived seeing or hearing it once. Doing a layered approach where you advertise on sites so customers get at least five exposures will help with your brand recognition. For instance, I know who James Patterson is, and I've bought one or two of his books, because I know his reputation for thrillers and I ran across his books when I was in a buying mood.
Hugh Howey, I know who he is, and I've purchased his WOOL omnibus. I plan on getting the sequels, Second and Third Shift, but haven't yet. What will happen is I will see some mention of it somewhere (when I'm in a buying and reading mood) and I'll buy it.

This is how advertising works. It's not an immediate payoff, but a layering so when the time is right, the customer will buy. Coke runs commercials constantly. Do they expect you to drop everything and run out and buy a Coke? No. But if you're thirsty, and in a convenience store, all that marketing may kick in and you pick the Coke over all the other drinks.

That kind of layered approach requires getting your advertising in front of the same people repeatedly. Frankly, that isn't practical for most indie authors.

 

[Lisa Grace]

That kind of layered approach requires getting your advertising in front of the same people repeatedly. Frankly, that isn't practical for most indie authors.

Sure it is. KB, Goodreads, Shelfari, Amazon, Google, ENT, are all places readers hangout and that we as writers can utilize for free, if you do some planning. It requires you sitting down and saying, "I'm going to do this, so how am I going to do it?" Rather than taking a defeatist attitude saying, "It's not practical." and then not even trying.

 

[Krista D. Ball]

I mean, advertising generally doesn't pay for itself, at least not immediately.

I generally do not pay for advertising that doesn't have an appropriate and immediate ROI.

 

[Ben Mathew]

The challenge with the long term approach is not being able to evaluate the ad campaign's efficacy, even in the long run. How would I ever know whether it's going to pay off, is paying off, has paid off already? Because I can't tie a sale to an ad, it's all unknown. Maybe the ads are very effective, maybe it's not. We just don't know and won't know.

Investing a lot of money in ads without being able to track its effectiveness is a very difficult proposition.

 

[JRTomlin]

Sure it is. KB, Goodreads, Shelfari, Amazon, Google, ENT, are all places readers hangout and that we as writers can utilize for free, if you do some planning. It requires you sitting down and saying, "I'm going to do this, so how am I going to do it?" Rather than taking a defeatist attitude saying, "It's not practical." and then not even trying.

Repeated ads on ENT? How do you manage that? You can seriously afford Amazon ads? *boggle*

Seriously, how likely are Google ads going to be in front of the same people as saw the KB ads I might run? It is extremely unlikely.

ETA: And I am not being defeatist, thank you, since I am one heck of a way from being defeated; however, I do try to be practical and honest about what I can and can't do.

 

[Patty Jansen]

ROI on stuff that's free is pretty high.

I think before you consider paid options, make sure you have a presence on all the free sites. Make sure that you use a website or blog for central announcements and other stuff. You can stream your blog to many sites, such as goodreads.

Make sure your bio pages on these sites are populated. Maintain your Twitter and Facebook accounts by searching for new people with similar interests and culling the old ones (like inactive accounts). Make sure all your books have images and blurbs wherever they are listed.

All this stuff is free, not very demanding, but gives a lot of people opportunities to find out about your books.

 

[JohnsonJoshuaK]

I just experienced a little bit of the whole "building the brand" thing yesterday. There was a blog post up on advertising for a new book in the sub-genre that I've done a lot of work establishing myself in (Gunpowder Fantasy/Muskets and Magic/Flintlock Fantasy; basically combining epic magic and gunpowder weapons).

Well, in response to that blog post it seems that a lot of people did google searches for some of the terms used and my blog saw a huge jump in traffic (I'm sure the couple of other authors who write in this area probably saw the same thing).

For me, at least, it didn't turn into an immediate jump in sales but now people know where to go if they want what I'm selling.

 

[Leanne King]

Repeated ads on ENT? How do you manage that? You can seriously afford Amazon ads? *boggle*

Seriously, how likely are Google ads going to be in front of the same people as saw the KB ads I might run? It is extremely unlikely.

Easy, retargetting. Your ads can follow your visitor all round the Internet. It's much cheaper than it was a few years ago.

I think the OP is coming from an old media world, or brand advertising rather than direct response. I agree with Krista, I don't pay for stuff I can't track and see immediately whether or not it's working.

Direct response internet advertising is a completely different beast from TV, radio, newspapers and magazines. Instant feedback, optimise in real time. If a campaign doesn't pay for itself, or at least show the potential to pay for itself and turn a profit very quickly, it's killed and move onto the next one. Brand advertising is okay when selling washing powder, books, not so much.

 

[Ty Johnston]

I think the OP is coming from an old media world, or brand advertising rather than direct response. I agree with Krista, I don't pay for stuff I can't track and see immediately whether or not it's working.

Direct response internet advertising is a completely different beast from TV, radio, newspapers and magazines. Instant feedback, optimise in real time. If a campaign doesn't pay for itself, or at least show the potential to pay for itself and turn a profit very quickly, it's killed and move onto the next one. Brand advertising is okay when selling washing powder, books, not so much.

I won't disagree about the "old media world," but I do disagree to some extent about the brand advertising. Books aren't the brand. The author's name is the brand.

I wouldn't suggest ROI advertising is bad or wrong or anything like that, but I do think it's short sighted. Like all advertising, it should be a marketing tool, but it shouldn't be the only one, nor should it be the only form of advertising if one is doing advertising.

As for other forms of marketing, several solid ones have been mentioned here already. Taking advantage of the free sites is a good idea, though the popularity of individual sites seem to peak and then wane; just make sure to hit them when they're popular. Facebook, Twitter, blogs, are all usual suspects, and while they can still be used productively, I don't think they have the draw they did a year ago, definitely not two years ago.

Finding an online home, or several homes, in a place where potential readers regularly hang out strikes me as the best of the current online options, popular genre boards and the like where not everyone is a writer. It might even be best at first not to point out that one is a writer, but to become a regular part of the community first (though this can also work at FB, Twitter, etc., to some extent).

Then there's always my personal favorite marketing tool: Writing the next book.

 

[JRTomlin]

I won't disagree about the "old media world," but I do disagree to some extent about the brand advertising. Books aren't the brand. The author's name is the brand.

I wouldn't suggest ROI advertising is bad or wrong or anything like that, but I do think it's short sighted. Like all advertising, it should be a marketing tool, but it shouldn't be the only one, nor should it be the only form of advertising if one is doing advertising.

As for other forms of marketing, several solid ones have been mentioned here already. Taking advantage of the free sites is a good idea, though the popularity of individual sites seem to peak and then wane; just make sure to hit them when they're popular. Facebook, Twitter, blogs, are all usual suspects, and while they can still be used productively, I don't think they have the draw they did a year ago, definitely not two years ago.

Finding an online home, or several homes, in a place where potential readers regularly hang out strikes me as the best of the current online options, popular genre boards and the like where not everyone is a writer. It might even be best at first not to point out that one is a writer, but to become a regular part of the community first (though this can also work at FB, Twitter, etc., to some extent).

Then there's always my personal favorite marketing tool: Writing the next book.

But you see, that is a long way from free. It takes a huge investment in time and unless the number of people you are interacting with is very large, it's just not worthwhile. I do have a couple of places I post, but you have to be very, very selective and the chances are your cutting your productivity. I generally get more out of putting a new book out that spending my time on forums.

Advertising can pay although I agree with Krista that I expect to see a fairly swift ROI and that is whether it is an investment in time or money.

ETA: By the way, re-targeting is irrelevant with ENT. Its advertising is usually booked a year in advance. Good luck with repeats there.

 

[Ty Johnston]

I generally get more out of putting a new book out that spending my time on forums.

I fully agree. That's why releasing the next book is my favorite marketing tool.

If anything, I simply wish to convey that those who can or do spend money on advertising shouldn't necessarily expect an instant return on their investment.

 

[Annette_g]

There are some big brands that advertise all the time such as Coca-Cola, but that won't get me to buy their drinks. Simple, as I don't like the taste (of any cola), LOL! But hey, I suppose it works for them or they wouldn't keep doing it.

I like the UK ads they had for Marmite - their tagline was you either loved it or you hated it, which is probably true. I don't like the taste of it either.

I have a combined website/blog with details of my books, latest news etc. and then I have another blog with book reviews, author interviews etc. and it gets a lot of traffic. I have my book covers posted on the side there and there are between 1.5K to 2K readers of that each month. They might only glance at the book covers, but since I've had that blog, my sales have increased gradually. So maybe some people remember the books when they're in a buying mood.

 

[A.A]

If anything, I simply wish to convey that those who can or do spend money on advertising shouldn't necessarily expect an instant return on their investment.

I do, or I won't spend. I'm cheap like that

But you and Lisa are right about brand recognition. People will often pick up 'trusted brands' over unknown brands (such as books from big name publishers). I've heard it said many times that 'readers don't care' who published a book, and while that is true for some, it's certainly not true for all. Many readers do care - a lot.

For indies, the best way to get that 'brand recognition' is to write commercial books and lots of 'em - that way people will begin to know and remember your name.

 

[Leanne King]

ETA: By the way, re-targeting is irrelevant with ENT. Its advertising is usually booked a year in advance. Good luck with repeats there.

Not a problem, ENT carries network ads including Google's, and I can (and do) buy retargeting ad impressions on Google's network (and others) through my preferred RTB exchange.

The great thing about retargeting isn't so much about appearing on relatively small sites like ENT, it's that you can have your ad show up on the New York Times, the WSJ, and most other 'big name's sites, which is handy on a number of levels (repeatedly seeing the same message, making your campaign - and by association your book - appear bigger and therefore more important than it is etc)

 

[jvin248]

Not a problem, ENT carries network ads including Google's, and I can (and do) buy retargeting ad impressions on Google's network (and others) through my preferred RTB exchange.

The great thing about retargeting isn't so much about appearing on relatively small sites like ENT, it's that you can have your ad show up on the New York Times, the WSJ, and most other 'big name's sites, which is handy on a number of levels (repeatedly seeing the same message, making your campaign - and by association your book - appear bigger and therefore more important than it is etc)

.
Can you elaborate on how the retargeting process works (where to start, costs, a "how to")? I've had a few products I've looked up and then they seem to follow me around the internet for a week in all the side/top bar google advertising bands. When the product wasn't what I wanted when I looked it up the extra impressions became annoying.
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There's an old advertising saw that "fifty percent of advertising is wasted - we just don't know which fifty percent". It generally applies to big media and not Internet projects where they pretend to track things for you (Holly W posted yesterday on FB advertising oddities) but it's what I use when evaluating any potential option. Though I do remember seven impressions instead of five being the key to switch over the recall effect when the consumer eventually slipped into the purchase mood. Another factor in advertising dynamics on recall and brand awareness is the consumer research required before purchase: soap at the supermarket vs an automobile have much different buying habits. I put ebooks in the high level of consumer research category since consumers invest a large time commitment - which explains why when they find an author they like they will read that author's whole portfolio.
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I know my best advertising is the next book or short story and that's where I spend my "cash" - and free promotions on Select.
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[Lisa Grace]

Repeated ads on ENT? How do you manage that? You can seriously afford Amazon ads? *boggle*

Seriously, how likely are Google ads going to be in front of the same people as saw the KB ads I might run? It is extremely unlikely.

ETA: And I am not being defeatist, thank you, since I am one heck of a way from being defeated; however, I do try to be practical and honest about what I can and can't do.

You are being defeatist, by picking one example out of the list...

How can you do it for free on ENT?
1) Run a free book with a higher than four star rating... let them know when it's free...
2) Another thought on how to get more mileage out of an ENT ad.... keep advertising your from when you had a book of the day ad
3) mention it on twitter once a day use ENT as a hashtag
4) link it again on Facebook
5) write an article about your results with your ENT ad and post on your blog or somewhere

This is just of the top of my head
Can't you think of these things for yourself? Can't you think "How do I get this done instead?" I'm sorry, your way of thinking is not pratical. Refusing to think of how does not fit the definitionof practical...

Practical means (Adjective)

Of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something.
(of an idea, plan, or method) Likely to succeed or be effective in real circumstances; feasible.

Come on....this isn't rocket science...