[Ava Glass]

Have you looked at the romance category recently? Realistically, the categories are merging. The differentiation these days is more based on heat level. Okay, the more porny titles have a certain crassness, and a lot of erotica is non-romantic, but that's what checkbox filters and subcats are for.

There's "Mystery, Thrillers, and Suspense" and "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Why not "Romance and Erotica"?

#1 book in "Romance" right now? Knocked Up by the Bad Boy.

 

[katetanner]

Have you looked at the romance category recently? Realistically, the categories are merging. The differentiation these days is more based on heat level. Okay, the more porny titles have a certain crassness, but that's what checkbox filters and subcats are for.

There's "Mystery, Suspense, and Thrillers" and "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Why not "Romance and Erotica"?

#1 book in "Romance" right now? Knocked Up by the Bad Boy.

Still the readers of erotica and romance are different. Some people who read erotica do not read romance and vice versa.

They are different genres. Just because there are books like 'knocked up by the bad boy', there is clean romance or mild romance which does not feature heavy steamy graphic sex. Those readers would not appreciate to see erotica mixed in with their clean/mild romance. Just cause a bunch of authors are writing more streamy stuff now that does not mean the two genres have to merged.

Romance is about the connection/chemistry/two people spending time together getting to know each other and exploring their feelings, supporting each other. These stories can survive without the sex scenes.

I don't add very graphic sex in my books and a few of my readers have made it clear that they don't read graphic books/erotica. I have a few 50 something readers and a great grandmother who loves my books and likes that i don't include very graphic descriptions.

Erotica and romance should be seperate.

 

[Ava Glass]

A book about a wizard is different from a book about a starship captain. They're both under "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Subcategories separate them.

It's all about the filters and subcategories. That's the part I don't think you're understanding. Readers who want clean can find clean if they can click on a checkbox or a subcategory.

It doesn't make sense to put a bunch of titles out in "Literature and Fiction" when they have so much overlap with Romance anyway. There's a popular erotic suspense series with one installment in erotica and another in romance. It doesn't make sense. Put them together and let the readers use subcategories and filters to find what they want.

I have a few 50 something readers and a great grandmother who loves my books and likes that i don't include very graphic descriptions.

What do they do now? The romance cat is already full of sex. Adding erotica subcategories and and a heat filter wouldn't change much. Actually, it would make it easier for them to find the clean stuff they're looking for.

 

[katetanner]

A book about a wizard is different from a book about a starship captain. They're both under "Science Fiction and Fantasy." Subcategories separate them.

It's all about the filters and subcategories. That's the part I don't think you're understanding. Readers who want clean can find clean if they can click on a checkbox or a subcategory.

It doesn't make sense to put a bunch of titles out in "Literature and Fiction" when they have so much overlap with Romance anyway. There's a popular erotic suspense series with one installment in erotica and another in romance. It doesn't make sense. Put them together and let the readers use subcategories and filters to find what they want.

What do they do now? The romance cat is already full of sex. Adding erotica subcategories and and a heat filter wouldn't change much. Actually, it would make it easier for them to find the clean stuff they're looking for.

At the moment Amazon has romance in one place and erotica in another place. It makes sense. Readers should be able to just click on the cat they want and find the books they want easily.
Some sub cats in erotica and sub more sub cats in romance would help to narrow down their search.

I feel like you are just looking at the current chart and thinking it's full of steamy romance stories so erotica and romance should merge, i don't think so.
I think they should have their own sub-cats and allow those readers to find the books they want quickly.

If i want a clean romance i dont want to see erotica in there.
If i want a taboo erotica i dont want to see christian romance in there.

 

[Ava Glass]

If i want a clean romance i dont want to see erotica in there.
If i want a taboo erotica i dont want to see christian romance in there.

Well, christian romance already has its own subcategory that shares an umbrella category with titles like Knocked up by the Bad Boy.

In the "Science Fiction Romance" subcategory clean titles mingle with "I'm an alien's sex slave" titles.

This is what it's already like.

 

[Ava Glass]

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Blue-Valentine-Sci-Fi-Romance-ebook/dp/B00TE7PHU8

This book illustrates how hard it is these days to distinguish between steamy romance, erotic romance, and erotica.

At first glance, you'd think "steamy romance." Actually, it's quite kink-driven. Domestic discipline BDSM plays a large role. There's spanking and anal punishment. So what is it? Erotic romance? Erotica?

ETA: I don't think Amazon has the resources to put all these these titles under a microscope and determine whether they are steamy romance, erotic romance, or erotica. We already know authors can't or won't do it. Amazon needs a realistic solution.

I think it might be doable to get authors of sex-free books to designate their books "clean" through keywords or whatever. That way, people can tick a box or click a subcat and find them.

ETA2: This is the category structure I'd propose:

Romance and Erotica [Umbrella category]
---Clean Romance
------various subcats

---Steamy and Erotic Romance
------various subcats

---Non-Romantic Erotica
------various subcats

 

[KelliWolfe]

Have you looked at the romance category recently? Realistically, the categories are merging. The differentiation these days is more based on heat level. Okay, the more porny titles have a certain crassness, and a lot of erotica is non-romantic, but that's what checkbox filters and subcats are for.

No. I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. Adding more/steamier sex scenes to a romance doesn't make it erotica, any more than supergluing wings to my house makes it a 747. They are two completely different things.

In erotica the focus is on the sexual interactions of the main character(s). There may be a relationship, but there doesn't have to be (*this* is what is properly categorized as romantic erotica, not romance with steamy sex thrown in). There may be a HEA/HFN ending, but there doesn't have to be.

In romance the focus is on the development of the romantic relationship between the characters and there needs to be a HEA/HFN ending. There can be as much or little sex of whatever degree of explicitness the writer wants, as long as the focus is on the romantic relationship and not the sex.

In a romance you can skip every single sex scene and still have a viable story. In erotica that's not the case. The sex *is* the story.

What you're talking about is what I was talking about earlier - romance writers dumping their books into erotica because they have some steamy sex. Or because they have an abusive alphahole male lead who is into kinky sex and not really particular about whether it's consensual or not. That still doesn't make it erotica. It's still a romance, with every element demanded by the genre present. And that's how it needs to be categorized if you want erotica writers to quit categorizing their "erotica with romance" in the romance categories.

 

[katetanner]

No. I'm sorry, but this is completely wrong. Adding more/steamier sex scenes to a romance doesn't make it erotica, any more than supergluing wings to my house makes it a 747. They are two completely different things.

In erotica the focus is on the sexual interactions of the main character(s). There may be a relationship, but there doesn't have to be (*this* is what is properly categorized as romantic erotica, not romance with steamy sex thrown in). There may be a HEA/HFN ending, but there doesn't have to be.

In romance the focus is on the development of the romantic relationship between the characters and there needs to be a HEA/HFN ending. There can be as much or little sex of whatever degree of explicitness the writer wants, as long as the focus is on the romantic relationship and not the sex.

In a romance you can skip every single sex scene and still have a viable story. In erotica that's not the case. The sex *is* the story.

What you're talking about is what I was talking about earlier - romance writers dumping their books into erotica because they have some steamy sex. Or because they have an abusive alphahole male lead who is into kinky sex and not really particular about whether it's consensual or not. That still doesn't make it erotica. It's still a romance, with every element demanded by the genre present. And that's how it needs to be categorized if you want erotica writers to quit categorizing their "erotica with romance" in the romance categories.

This is pretty much what I've been saying in my last few comments.

They are two different genres with their own readers. Romance does not have to feature one single sex scene. Romance is read for the love story and the chemistry/connection between the characters, it features a HEA/HFN.

Erotica is read for the sexual exploration/sexual story/plot/turning the reader on. The story could be about two people who have a connection that is explored over a period of time but it is focused on the sexual relationship/connection.

You are right, a romance book with kinky sex does not belong in erotica.

i'd like to see erotic romance moved over to the romance section

Then as i said above, i would like to see more erotica sub-cats.

 

[cinisajoy]

I know one writer that put her romances in erotica because she was taught as a child any mention of sex or sexual innuendo is erotica.    She is a pretty good writer but her sex scenes are not graphic in any way.    I want the nitty and the gritty in erotica. 

As per 50 shades,  how about 50 shades of coffee?    Everyone and their chihuahuas tried to capitalize on 50 shades of gray.   
Yes that is an actual cookbook.

 

[KelliWolfe]

But is it in the erotica section? 

 

[Ava Glass]

I was learned the difference between erotic and steamy romance years ago. My point is that the difference is getting blurry and irrelevant.

We have an army of self-published authors who don't care, an army of readers who don't care, and a behemoth bookseller who doesn't care (as long a the book doesn't contain filterable or blockable elements).

What are the realistic options? Launch an education campaign to teach self-published authors the subtle differences? Try to get Amazon to devote an army of employees to read thousands of titles to determine whether there's still a story if the sex is taken out?

My solution is simple. Is there sex: Y/N? Is there romance: Y/N? The answers would sort books into clean romance, steamy/erotic romance, or non-romantic erotica.

 

[LeonardDHilleyII]

This is what Amazon mandates:

Publishing Process Enter Book Information Selecting Browse Categories Erotica Category Keywords
Erotica Category Keywords
In order for a title to appear in the Erotica sub-categories below, the title's search keywords must include at least one of the keywords or phrases listed next to the sub-category. These categories and subcategories are specific to books listed for sale on Amazon.com; other marketplaces may not support these keywords.

Category Keywords
Erotica/Action & Adventure action, adventure, pulp
Erotica/Adult Fairy Tales fairy tales
Erotica/BDSM bdsm, bondage, sadism, masochism, submission
Erotica/Historical historical
Erotica/Horror horror
Erotica/Humorous humor, humour, comedy
Erotica/Interracial interracial
Erotica/LGBT/Bisexual bisexual
Erotica/LGBT/Gay gay
Erotica/LGBT/Lesbian lesbian
Erotica/LGBT/Transgender transgender
Erotica/Mystery mystery
Erotica/Paranormal paranormal
Erotica/Poetry poetry, poem
Erotica/Romantic Erotica romance
Erotica/Science Fiction science fiction
Erotica/Suspense suspense
Erotica/Thrillers thriller
Erotica/Urban urban
Erotica/Victorian victorian
Erotica/Westerns western
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Alpha Males alpha male
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Angels angel
Erotica: Erotica Characters/BBW bbw, rubenesque
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Bikers motorcycle, biker
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Billionaires billionaire
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Cowboys cowboy
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Devils & Demons devil, demon
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Ghosts ghost, spirit
Erotica: Erotica Characters/People in Uniform uniform, police, military, nurse, maid, combat, doctor
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Rockstars rock
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Shapeshifters shifter
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Vampires vampire
Erotica: Erotica Characters/Werewolves werewolf
Erotica/Action & Adventure action, adventure, pulp
Erotica/Adult Fairy Tales fairy tales

 

[Ava Glass]

We're debating whether or not there should be a "Romance and Erotica" category because erom and erotica authors are increasingly putting their books in Romance anyway.

 

[cinisajoy]

We're debating whether or not there should be a "Romance and Erotica" category because erom and erotica authors are increasingly putting their books in Romance anyway.

Simple answer: NO.
It is not Amazon's fault that some authors can't read. So why should they give in to those that don't know the difference?

 

[Atunah]

My solution is simple. Is there sex: Y/N? Is there romance: Y/N? The answers would sort books into clean romance, steamy/erotic romance, or non-romantic erotica.

You keep excluding a majority of romance. There as a huge amount of romance books that fall in between clean and steamy/erotic. In fact I'd say that 80 % of the 1000's and 1000's of romances I have read fall in there. There are many levels before you got to erotic romance. It isn't just ER or clean. If one reads a lot of romance, once knows that.

Just because authors routinely mis-categorize their books, does not suddenly make 2 different genres the same. Erotica and romance are not the same. Oddly I hear only authors keep screaming that from the rooftops and often its those that keep asking questions about what romance is and really have no idea. Whats next, we'll combine thrillers and fantasy? All the same too, right?

I think I have heard it all now.

 

[daringnovelist]

I was learned the difference between erotic and steamy romance years ago. My point is that the difference is getting blurry and irrelevant.

Actually, that's not true. I mean about the irrelevancy.

The only thing making it blurry is that people who prefer steamy over erotic are left annoyed and angry, but helpless because authors refuse to properly label their works.

 

[Ava Glass]

It isn't just ER or clean. If one reads a lot of romance, once knows that.

No. There's sensual/steamy romance and erotic romance. They're not the same, but I don't think most readers would care if they got sorted together because that's how it already is. Did you see my example of the domestic discipline SF short? The author called it romance and readers did not care.

Just because authors routinely mis-categorize their books, does not suddenly make 2 different genres the same.

Who is going to enforce the subtle boundaries between steamy and sensual rom vs erom?

Whats next, we'll combine thrillers and fantasy? All the same too, right?

Thrillers are combined with mystery and suspense. Fantasy is combined with science fiction. Romance and erotica are a similar combo.

 

[Ava Glass]

Simple answer: NO.
It is not Amazon's fault that some authors can't read. So why should they give in to those that don't know the difference?

Clean romance and non-romantic erotica are obvious. The differences between sensual, steamy, and erom are harder to figure out. I guess publishers used to uphold the subtle boundaries, but we're in a different world.

Who is going to do it now? Amazon? Authors? All this "how it should be" talk isn't terribly practical.

Authors will categorize their books where it makes best economic sense.

 

[Ava Glass]

I'd be all for clean romance, sensual romance, steamy romance, erotic romance, and non-romantic erotica if authors could be trusted to put their books in the right categories.

I just think the boundaries have to be really obvious or else authors will miscategorize.

 

[Guest]

My chest of drawers sometimes has white socks all mixed up with black socks. Even some red or blue socks.
I don't get bent out of shape about it.
Just plunge right in and sort through stuff until I get just what I want.
I don't have a hissy because they're all jumbled up.
Find what I want and get on with life.