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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am in a position where I might become a publisher (of other people than myself). Has anyone else ever done this here? Any tips/pointers you can offer?

The situation is another author in my area wants to publish, but she's not technically-inclined. She has been toying with the idea of using a vanity publisher (paying like $1,200 to them for them to publish it AND share in the royalties). I told her to hold off on that until I can think about things, about the possible options. Another small press (probably the only other small press in this area, small town) has turned her down because she's a first-time author. I know how difficult it is to get started in publishing, especially when you don't have the technical know-how to do it yourself.

I've always wanted to steer away from it, but I may run into the same problem anyway when my roleplaying game is finished - people may want to publish supplements/settings/add-ons to the game, and it would be in my best interest to support this by helping them every step of the way. I am both frightened and excited by the prospect; I've seen a great deal of success, and I know I can do it. I can only speculate as to how dangerous it could be for me and the other authors with all the legalities, contracts, attorneys, and so forth involved.

Any thoughts would be appreciated on this matter while I consider everything.

About the other author: she's older than myself (well above age of consent for contracts, etc.), and I feel she's very intelligent and capable of doing the author part if only she had someone willing to take a chance. My estimated costs for publishing her would be something like $200 or less. I'm making plenty on my publishing business now that I can take that chance without a second thought or fear. I'm just seeing if anyone else has any eperience or thoughts about my moving from self-publisher to micro/small press.
 

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Brian, if she's local, can't you just help her get her books formatted and then get them up on Amazon, B&N, and SM for a flat fee? You don't want the headache of collecting money every month and then giving it to her unless you're getting a percentage.
 

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My first inclination would be to refer her to small epubs already in existence, since there are many of them already. I didn't have any difficulties getting published in epub because I was a first-timer. Is her genre just not fitting the ones she's looked at?

I'm just not sure there's a need for another micropress, unless that publisher has a distinct vision and lots of resources. The net just seems kind of flooded with them at this point.
 

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Asher MacDonald said:
Brian, if she's local, can't you just help her get her books formatted and then get them up on Amazon, B&N, and SM for a flat fee? You don't want the headache of collecting money every month and then giving it to her unless you're getting a percentage.
I second this.
 

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Sounds simplest to go the flat fee route for services rendered -- if she needs further technical assistance to upload and/or change stuff, you could set fees for that sort of like when you pay a web designer, maybe?
 

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I agree, if you think it would be fun to do it for more than one person, you might want to talk to Julie. But otherwise, go the flat fee route.

The other thing you could do, if you want to be a friend, is to gather info on "service providers" who do various jobs.  You could start with the people Konrath recommends for formatting and covers, and also maybe refer a few folks from here that we know.  (Somebody's husband does such work for a reasonable price, but I don't remember who.)

I think it's actually a good idea for all of us to start collecting contact lists for when people want to know who will do things for them.  (I actually think Smashwords also has a referral list too, don't they?)

Camille
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Asher MacDonald said:
Brian, if she's local, can't you just help her get her books formatted and then get them up on Amazon, B&N, and SM for a flat fee? You don't want the headache of collecting money every month and then giving it to her unless you're getting a percentage.
Well, if I were to actually be the publisher, I'd receive some kind of compensation. I'd be doing the cover formatting, interior formatting, eBook formatting, submission for print, securing the ISBN for the book, and some promotional efforts. The problem lies in the fact that I have already had a free consultation and given the steps to get it on CreateSpace, but she was unable to follow them. She wants it to be in print for sure. I told her how to acquire an ISBN, publish to CreateSpace, and eBook, but she sent me an email saying she was probably going to just go with a vanity for $1,200. I told her to wait while I thought about things to better advise her.

I don't even know what I would charge for taking a raw manuscript and doing everything in between to make it sell. If it were me trying to secure the services, I know that it'd be expensive as all get out. That's why I'm considering being her publisher instead - the total time investment would yield compensation in the form of part of the royalty instead of a flat fee, and it would be much cheaper for her over time. She'd still make money, she could "just write" (oh, the envy I feel, lol), and not worry about all of these technical things.

As far as paying every month, it would be every 6 (probably July 31st and January 31st) with royalties accrued during the period (excluding any not yet received, those would be forwarded to the next period), with her taking the lion's share of the profits.

anne_holly said:
My first inclination would be to refer her to small epubs already in existence, since there are many of them already. I didn't have any difficulties getting published in epub because I was a first-timer. Is her genre just not fitting the ones she's looked at?

I'm just not sure there's a need for another micropress, unless that publisher has a distinct vision and lots of resources. The net just seems kind of flooded with them at this point.
Competition or the number of other presses is the least of my concerns. I have no intentions of setting up some revolutionary e-publishing conglomerate. It's more a matter of taking care of friends.

Victorine said:
Talk to Julie. (Bardsandsages) She knows all about the business side of it. (Taxes and such.)

Vicki
Alrighty, thanks. Maybe she'll dip by the thread here and give her thoughts, too.

JodyWallace said:
Sounds simplest to go the flat fee route for services rendered -- if she needs further technical assistance to upload and/or change stuff, you could set fees for that sort of like when you pay a web designer, maybe?
I'm kind of dangerous to myself in this regard. I'm too soft for it, really; I wouldn't charge for updating because it's such a simple process to me. I mean, I do computer programming on top of everything else - I've never really had trouble dealing with complex computer systems. Easy to me may be impossible to others, but I still have trouble charging for it.

daringnovelist said:
I agree, if you think it would be fun to do it for more than one person, you might want to talk to Julie. But otherwise, go the flat fee route.

The other thing you could do, if you want to be a friend, is to gather info on "service providers" who do various jobs. You could start with the people Konrath recommends for formatting and covers, and also maybe refer a few folks from here that we know. (Somebody's husband does such work for a reasonable price, but I don't remember who.)

I think it's actually a good idea for all of us to start collecting contact lists for when people want to know who will do things for them. (I actually think Smashwords also has a referral list too, don't they?)

Camille
Well, like I said, I will be releasing a RPG game system (the way D&D releases books, et. al.), so I'll probably end up publishing someone other than myself in the near future. Perhaps this could be training wheels? Fiction books are much easier to publish and deal with than textbook-types in many ways.
 

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I think a flat fee is better.

For your RPG if others are doing derivative work, that's a different story. For someone who only wants to get a book up, I'd charge a flat fee.

Then again I'm poor. Do the opposite of what I suggest. :)
 

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Wow, that's a interesting spot to be in.  I think it's fair to be paid for your services, even if they are easy to you.  The service is easy to you but hard for her... just like anything in life.  You pay $35 for an oil change that someone has ton 1,000's of times but you still pay, right?

I know it's hard if you're friends with the person, etc. so it's a tough spot.

I would either (1) charge a fee to do it or (2) help as much as you can as a friend, for free, and if gets to much, walk away.

I'll PM you with an idea or two too...

-jb 8)
 
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I would suggest that unless you actually want to be a publisher, don't be a publisher. It is one thing to publish your own books. It is quite another when you start fidgeting around with other people's stuff. While you say she is not techically inclined, you did not mention what she knows about marketing. If she has this bright idea in her head that all she needs to do is have a book on Amazon and it will sell, she is going to be sorely dissappointed. Before she does anything, you need to be clear with her regarding what "publishing" means. It means a lot more than just uploading a properly formatted file. Distribution is not the same thing as marketing, and a lot of people confuse this.

As her friend, you obligation is not to charge her for what she wants. Your obligation is to make sure she gets what she actually needs. If she has the aptitude to be an indie but just needs technical help, then help her with the tech stuff and charge her a flat fee if needed. But if she honestly needs the hand holding of a publisher, then your obligation is to make sure she gets the publisher her work deserves. But you need to be the one to be blunt and direct with her and make sure she fully understands what it means to be indie. From your posts, I don't think she does.

I happen to be a project junkie. ;D I love the entire process of publishing. Things like formatting and editing and planning marketing programs are not just neccessary evils to me. I enjoy them. You have to if you are going to be a publisher. If you don't actually ENJOY the entire process and only do these things because you have to in order to get your own book in print, you will be miserable as a publisher.

The legal aspects of publishing are as complicated as you make it. I could always send you a sample contract that I use, and you could edit it as you needed for your situation. You would have to issue a 1099 form if royalties get high enough, which is not really all that complicated but you would still want to consult an accountant to make sure you dot the i's and cross the t's. If you are establishing a publishing name, you will need to get a DBA, which is as complicated as your home state makes it (some require nothing more that a declaration form. Others make you jump through hoops). And you will need to check with your local clerk to see if there are any regulations regarding running a business out of your home. But these are the EASY parts.

Where publishing gets hard is that it becomes YOUR BRAND on the line. Sympathy publish a crap book, and it is your name that gets raked through the mud and your brand that gets diluted. For a small press to survive in this environment, you have to establish a strong brand identity (and this is particularly important if you also plan on publishing RPGs, which I will get to in a minute.)

You will have fights with your authors over edits, because they will want to preserve the integrity of their perceived brilliance and you will want to clean up continuity issues and overwriting. I have had virtual "throw downs" with a few of my authors, and in the end it produced stronger work. But it can be exhausting and you need to have the will to do what is best for the book and not what appeases the author. Because it is YOUR brand on the line.

And if you are NOT planning on editing, you have no business being a publisher. Frankly, the reason why so many authors have bad tastes in their mouths about publishing is because of the number of fake publishers who set up a website with no clue what they are doing. Anyone can get an ISBN. Anyone can format a file. A publisher researches the market and understands his or her target demographics and knows how to get them to buy.

Marketing becomes a whole different ballgame. You can't depend on Amazon algorithms to sell books. You need to preserve price integrity and understand your break even points to develop marketing plans that will allow you to turn your money over quickly. Unlike a self-publishing author, I don't have a year or two to wait around for a 99 cent book to make a profit. I have a three month window, because I need to turn money over from the last project to pay for the next project.

So I would say if you are going to be a publisher in name only, don't do it. If, on the other hand, you actually are ready to accept 100% of a publisher's responsibilities (and you want to do it) then I can offer whatever advice you need.
 
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RPGs are a different animal.  Most RPG work is work-for-hire.  You pay a flat rate for the work and then you as the publisher own it.  So you aren’t dealing with royalties and such.  Particularly if it is your own system, you are going to want complete control because everything will be derivative work of your IP. That is really the most important thing (well, that, and finding decent, affordable artists that aren’t flakes is like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack).  :eek:

You been in touch with the guys at drivethrurpg.com/rpgnow.com yet? 

What genre does your friend write in, BTW?  Is she in the same general genres as you?  It just occurred to be if she is writing in something completely outside what you are doing, it could further dilute your branding. 
 

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Bards and Sages (Julie) said:
RPGs are a different animal. Most RPG work is work-for-hire. You pay a flat rate for the work and then you as the publisher own it. So you aren't dealing with royalties and such.
Or at least they should. Julie, I've been hearing a lot of the new companies that started in the last year or so are doing royalty based on rpgs. Can't see that working well with IP use, but it might be the only way some of them are able to survive with the way the industry is. I know I haven't been able to move product they way I was used to back in the day. Long gone are the evergreen products that sold several thousand copies.

Brian, feel free to ask RPG specific questions. I know Julie has been in the RPG industry for quite a while. I remember when Neiyar first came out back in like 2004-2005. And I've been in it since late in 2000. Between writing for other companies or publishing I've had my hand in over 200 projects.
 
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tensen said:
Or at least they should. *****, I've been hearing a lot of the new companies that started in the last year or so are doing royalty based on rpgs. Can't see that working well with IP use, but it might be the only way some of them are able to survive with the way the industry is.
That is just a nightmare waiting to happen. :p I actually made that mistake early on (because nobody told me any better lol) but bought out those contracts as soon as I could after realizing how problematic it was. Never...again. The problem is that everything is all well and good so long as a product is small. But if it takes off and you want the freedom to do other things people "forget" all of those informal, friendly agreements they had.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Bards and Sages (Julie) said:
I would suggest that unless you actually want to be a publisher, don't be a publisher. It is one thing to publish your own books. It is quite another when you start fidgeting around with other people's stuff. While you say she is not techically inclined, you did not mention what she knows about marketing. If she has this bright idea in her head that all she needs to do is have a book on Amazon and it will sell, she is going to be sorely dissappointed. Before she does anything, you need to be clear with her regarding what "publishing" means. It means a lot more than just uploading a properly formatted file. Distribution is not the same thing as marketing, and a lot of people confuse this.
Yes, the marketing part would be hard for both of us. Her for being new to the business completely, and for my not having much time to devote to it. I hardly have enough time to devote to my own marketing, promotion, and publicity.

As her friend, you obligation is not to charge her for what she wants. Your obligation is to make sure she gets what she actually needs. If she has the aptitude to be an indie but just needs technical help, then help her with the tech stuff and charge her a flat fee if needed. But if she honestly needs the hand holding of a publisher, then your obligation is to make sure she gets the publisher her work deserves. But you need to be the one to be blunt and direct with her and make sure she fully understands what it means to be indie. From your posts, I don't think she does.
Good point. I think at this point she does need the hand-holding of a publisher, but there are none in sight. She could be her own publisher, but just about everything would have to be contracted out to me or somebody.

I happen to be a project junkie. ;D I love the entire process of publishing. Things like formatting and editing and planning marketing programs are not just neccessary evils to me. I enjoy them. You have to if you are going to be a publisher. If you don't actually ENJOY the entire process and only do these things because you have to in order to get your own book in print, you will be miserable as a publisher.
I love everything except the marketing. I do enjoy publicity, but the hard marketing aspect is not so enjoyable. I've had a good bit of success with keeping publicity up and doing those because I enjoy them. I hated designing advertisements and so forth, but I loved giving interviews or reading reviews posted to blogs. But as I mentioned before, time is a huge problem. Marketing myself is hard enough with a 40-hour full-time job, a wife, baby, and all the things that go along with it. I'm lucky to get a chance to write sometimes.

The legal aspects of publishing are as complicated as you make it. I could always send you a sample contract that I use, and you could edit it as you needed for your situation. You would have to issue a 1099 form if royalties get high enough, which is not really all that complicated but you would still want to consult an accountant to make sure you dot the i's and cross the t's. If you are establishing a publishing name, you will need to get a DBA, which is as complicated as your home state makes it (some require nothing more that a declaration form. Others make you jump through hoops). And you will need to check with your local clerk to see if there are any regulations regarding running a business out of your home. But these are the EASY parts.
I've done the latter so I could publish myself, the DBA is registered, business account is setup for deposits, and I track expenses. Right now, I file a section C on my individual return (sole proprietorship). If I were to publish others, I could probably still file section C if I'm giving 1099's to the other author; however, taxes aren't my primary concern with this, of course.

Where publishing gets hard is that it becomes YOUR BRAND on the line. Sympathy publish a crap book, and it is your name that gets raked through the mud and your brand that gets diluted. For a small press to survive in this environment, you have to establish a strong brand identity (and this is particularly important if you also plan on publishing RPGs, which I will get to in a minute.)

You will have fights with your authors over edits, because they will want to preserve the integrity of their perceived brilliance and you will want to clean up continuity issues and overwriting. I have had virtual "throw downs" with a few of my authors, and in the end it produced stronger work. But it can be exhausting and you need to have the will to do what is best for the book and not what appeases the author. Because it is YOUR brand on the line.
This is one thing I'd much rather contract out than do myself, at least for the first pass-through. I can do editing (especially of other peoples' works), but it's a matter of time and genre. I'm not absolutely positive what genre this other author's book will fit into (she's explained it briefly before, but I wasn't considering publishing it then and it sounded a little complex), but I would read it prior to publishing it. If I saw a need for work, I'd let her know and see what she thought. If she didn't want to do the edits, I'd decline to publish. Aside from that, time is rather tight, so I try to use it to the greatest benefit.

And if you are NOT planning on editing, you have no business being a publisher. Frankly, the reason why so many authors have bad tastes in their mouths about publishing is because of the number of fake publishers who set up a website with no clue what they are doing. Anyone can get an ISBN. Anyone can format a file. A publisher researches the market and understands his or her target demographics and knows how to get them to buy.

Marketing becomes a whole different ballgame. You can't depend on Amazon algorithms to sell books. You need to preserve price integrity and understand your break even points to develop marketing plans that will allow you to turn your money over quickly. Unlike a self-publishing author, I don't have a year or two to wait around for a 99 cent book to make a profit. I have a three month window, because I need to turn money over from the last project to pay for the next project.
This last paragraph especially. EXACTLY. My first few books, I didn't have outside costs, and I've been held back in some regards. Was it a mistake to publish without the $2,000 editor (which is all I could find at the time, was before KB and the nice, more affordable editors), the $1,000 cover art, the $5,000 PR representative? I don't think so. When I talked to Lynn O'Dell, she told me she's talked to numerous authors who've been in my same shoes - basically, we had to get a few books going, do the absolute best we could, and get them out there. We had to make a few sales to fuel the machine so that we had a chance to do something great or better the next time, and then the next time, and so forth, using part of the revenues from Project A to fund B, revenues from B to fund C and D, and maybe by the time you get to E or F, the funding is regular and you can better enjoy the whole thing (or, at least put out a much more polished book).

I'm not saying that I (or the other authors Lynn had spoken with) have put out crappy books, at least not insofar as we ourselves believe (having secured good reviews from professionals and readers alike). But, you look at a 1-star or 2-star and drive yourself crazy saying, "If I had gotten that $2,000 editor, might this person have become a fan? Or, would that $2,000 editor simply have taken my money because it is easy to part from a fool?" It's very similar to regret, but not quite - the same line of thinking, but, instead of shame and disappointment, there is redemption in the fact that several people have sent you emails telling you how much they loved the book, even if they don't leave glowing reviews.

So I would say if you are going to be a publisher in name only, don't do it. If, on the other hand, you actually are ready to accept 100% of a publisher's responsibilities (and you want to do it) then I can offer whatever advice you need.
I will still have to think about which way I need to go with it. Maybe a consultant would be the best route at the present time. Hell, she could give me the $1,200, and I could just do it and give her the CD with everything on it (for safekeeping), then go upload everything, set distribution, and cut her loose until she's ready to go at a new book again. With a book that has already been written (and I don't have to do editing), I can do the cover, formatting, eBook, and get everything set for distribution as soon as the system refreshes in less than a full week. I'd probably take two to make sure (I like staring at my covers for hours on end to detect any flaws or imperfections), but you get the idea.

On one of my books, I procrastinated for so long that the release date crept up on me. I looked at the calendar and realized I had three days to finish everything and get it published. Basically, though, with how long it takes the system to update a new title, I had to submit three days from the release date to be on time. That was an interesting night:

With a hand on the mouse and a cup in the other, he clicked furiously. The deadline approached, and it wasn't slowing down. Not for him, not for anyone. He had to make it to market, and he had to do it fast. Each time a memory of fun crept into his mind, he fought it away with every drop of concentration he could muster. It was the good times that had gotten him into this predicament in the first place. "I shouldn't have drank all weekend," he said aloud, spitting some of his soda on the computer's monitor. "Damn!" Precious time wasted wiping the screen. He took a sandwich in the same hand his soda sat. Save more time any way you can, he thought.

Or something like that... lol
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Bards and Sages (Julie) said:
RPGs are a different animal. Most RPG work is work-for-hire. You pay a flat rate for the work and then you as the publisher own it. So you aren't dealing with royalties and such. Particularly if it is your own system, you are going to want complete control because everything will be derivative work of your IP. That is really the most important thing (well, that, and finding decent, affordable artists that aren't flakes is like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack). :eek:

You been in touch with the guys at drivethrurpg.com/rpgnow.com yet?

What genre does your friend write in, BTW? Is she in the same general genres as you? It just occurred to be if she is writing in something completely outside what you are doing, it could further dilute your branding.
I've spoken through emails with Drivethru (and I'm pretty sure RPGNow are the same guys, but that's probably what you meant by the / between them). I've told them about the project, and they said that's fine, let them know when it gets closer to being finished and all.

The finding artists part, oh God, I can totally relate. "$1,000 for a quarter page? Are you kidding me?" [In a French poser accent] "Why, yes, oui. It is art." Me: "It's a freaking quarter-page box, an ink drawing of a guy holding a gun! Nothing special there." [In a French poser accent] "Why, yes, oui. But there is a true-to-life redrawing of the Mona Lisa behind him." *This conversation is provided solely for laughs - I have not experienced this.

And... that's if you get someone reasonable. The artists deserve to make money, no arguing there, but some of them want to make most of the money from the project. There's more money to be made in freelance, but it's supposed to be because you don't have to commit to a single project. Instead, some artists think it's better to be a freelancer because you can charge what you want and try to get rich off of each client. So many are doing the latter now that it's hard to find someone willing to work on my budget and my terms; I'm having trouble seeing the forest from all the trees. I want to pay reasonable rates, and if I hear, "Well, Wizards of the Coast/White Wolf/Paizo/etc. would pay double/triple/10x that for my skills..." one more time, I'll puke. I want to say back, "Well, why aren't you on their team, then?", but I contain myself. I also want to say, "I'm not Wizards of the Coast." lol

By the way, if you know anywhere to find reasonable artists, let me know. I'm not trying to break myself on artwork for this book - rarely have I seen a piece of game art that was so memorable I think of it even now, anyway (cover art itself excluded, that's a different animal altogether). I'm talking about interior art. Black and white line art and drawings, that sort of thing.
 
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BrianKittrell said:
I've spoken through emails with Drivethru (and I'm pretty sure RPGNow are the same guys, but that's probably what you meant by the / between them). I've told them about the project, and they said that's fine, let them know when it gets closer to being finished and all.
Yep, it's all onebookshelf.com. They also operate a bunch of fiction sites (Drivethruhorror, drivethrufantasy, etc). You can source them all from a single account, however, and then just assign products to the different accounts. I also have my own affiliate site (bardsandsages.rpgnow.com) that I use for all links. The customer base through RPGNOW tend to buy multiple products at once, so you can hit the residual income off off the entire shopping cart. I do pretty well with it (though most of my affiliate money gets spent buying products on the site!)

BrianKittrell said:
The finding artists part, oh God, I can totally relate. "$1,000 for a quarter page? Are you kidding me?" [In a French poser accent] "Why, yes, oui. It is art." Me: "It's a freaking quarter-page box, an ink drawing of a guy holding a gun! Nothing special there." [In a French poser accent] "Why, yes, oui. But there is a true-to-life redrawing of the Mona Lisa behind him." *This conversation is provided solely for laughs - I have not experienced this.
Not even funny! I'm dealing with this now. Got someone who wants to charge me full page rates for half and quarter page images because "even if you are going to use it only for 1/4 page, I NEED to design it at full size." For smaller project, I use a lot of the stock art sold at rpgnow (thus where my affiliate money goes) because you just want it for illustrative purposes. But I'm planning a major rewrite of Neiyar, and I was hoping to get one artist to do everything for consistency. Having a bear of a time.

BrianKittrell said:
And... that's if you get someone reasonable. The artists deserve to make money, no arguing there, but some of them want to make most of the money from the project. There's more money to be made in freelance, but it's supposed to be because you don't have to commit to a single project. Instead, some artists think it's better to be a freelancer because you can charge what you want and try to get rich off of each client. So many are doing the latter now that it's hard to find someone willing to work on my budget and my terms; I'm having trouble seeing the forest from all the trees. I want to pay reasonable rates, and if I hear, "Well, Wizards of the Coast/White Wolf/Paizo/etc. would pay double/triple/10x that for my skills..." one more time, I'll puke. I want to say back, "Well, why aren't you on their team, then?", but I contain myself. I also want to say, "I'm not Wizards of the Coast." lol
Exactly. And if they were so talented, they would ALREADY be working for WoTC. The problem is that people don't realize most indie RPG publishers are working on shoestring budgets. You only make a profit if you can keep your costs down. And development of a game can get expensive to begin with (as you no doubt have learned lol). Unlike a book cover, interior art doesn't "sell" a RPG product, it only compliments it. I'll spend money on a book cover, because it will sell books. Heck look at the art in Palladium books. It is nothing to write home about, and yet Kevin has one of the most rabid fanbase you can dream of.
 
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