[matt youngmark]

Don't you have to order 50 copies for that set-up fee waver to kick in?

You do. It's also worth noting that I asked for free setup with a 50-copy run while they were not actually running the promotion, and my rep happily gave it to me anyway.

 

[rsullivan9597]

okay... this completely goes against my: "Zoe, just let it go, don't get into it" thing, and really I should just let it go. People are going to do what they're going to do and it really doesn't affect my world. But no, the thrust of my argument isn't "Amazon is evil, whaaa" though I DO think it behooves business people who wish to REMAIN independent in their dealings to not give any one company ALL the power with which to take away those freedoms. Trusting a big corporation is unwise. Always. Helping a company move more toward a monopoly is always freedom limiting for everyone else.

But here is the simple math breakdown:

Per Robin's example on her site: With $39 investment at CS: She has to sell 35 books to make back that money. (on a 300 page book priced retail at $13.95)... she states that her CS profit margin for that is $1.13 per book. That's a bad profit margin.

With $117 investment at LSI, with my profit margin of $6.36 per book (for the same specs: 300 page book at $13.95)... using the 20% short discount which I have NEVER had a problem with... it takes selling 18 copies to get that back.

18 copies to get back your investment (LSI) is less than 35 copies to get back your investment (CS). While CS is probably better for those who are only casually self-publishing (because of the learning curve and having to have your own ISBN block and publishing imprint), If you're set up to do that kind of business anyway and that's how you want to run things, under your own imprint... then LSI is IMO the better choice.

But your mileage may vary.

Now I'm going to go let someone slap my hands with a ruler for even engaging when I should just ignore it and let people think whatever they want to think about things that don't affect me.

Z

ETA: And ugh... actually 19 copies is what I have to sell, not 18. So much for Zoe knowing basic math. But the rest is right.

Actually....I earn back the $39 CS fee in 6 books because I sell books direct and on those I make $6.50 per book.

 

[rsullivan9597]

A few more points that I might add to my blog.  I've posted controversial things before didn't think this would be one of them.  I think the issue comes down to where do you sell the most ebooks from. For me the list is:

1 - Amazon
2 - Direct
3 - Channels

In this scenario CS makes the most sense for me because I get the "buy direct" books MUCH cheaper with CS even though LS offers volume discounts That $0.15 per page vs. $0.12 per page really adds up.

One thing that really fascinates me and would make me change my decision...Zoe are you saying that by publishing through LS you can get your books on Amazon at a 20% discount rather than a 40% discount?  If so this is HUGE and would defintely make me revise my advice.

 

[rsullivan9597]

Question for the people. If I want to make an update to my CS book's text (to fix a typo, for example), I just upload a new file and don't pay any fee. What's the process like to update your internal book file with LSI? Does it cost and how much more difficult is it with LSI?

If you make a change to the book - both printers processes will want another proof. Which is another reason why I like CS as I can change the interior for less than $10 where with LS is costs me $37.50 + 30.00 = $67.50.

 

[matt youngmark]

One thing that really fascinates me and would make me change my decision...Zoe are you saying that by publishing through LS you can get your books on Amazon at a 20% discount rather than a 40% discount? If so this is HUGE and would defintely make me revise my advice.

It is true! It is absolutely true!

 

[Victorine]

Very informative post, Robin.  This is how I sell my books too, so CS does make the most sense to me.

Vicki

 

[Nancy C. Johnson Author]

Thanks, Robin, for this great post!

Glad you did the research and all the calculations on this.

I've bookmarked this thread for future use.

Nancy

 

[MosesSiregarIII]

One thing that really fascinates me and would make me change my decision...Zoe are you saying that by publishing through LS you can get your books on Amazon at a 20% discount rather than a 40% discount? If so this is HUGE and would defintely make me revise my advice.

Robin, you have an old post on your writing blog that I responded to some time last year about this. I explained that you could get a 20% short discount through LSI, but that comment was never approved so I don't know if you saw it.

 

[MosesSiregarIII]

Because of the 20% short discount through LSI, they seem to be the better option if you intend to sell a lot of paper books. It could result in three times as much income or more (let's say a profit of $1 vs $3, or $2 vs $6). That extra 20% of your list price is going to be all profit.

However, while I hope to sell a good number of paper books, I'm still going to start with CS on my novel because I've already used them once before and I don't want to mess around with Lightning Source's learning curve right now. If all goes well (i.e. I sell well in paper), then that decision will cost me a good chunk of change. That would be a good problem to have at this point.

 

[MosesSiregarIII]

Sorry for the triple post, but does anyone know how the following would work?

What happens if you start with CS on Amazon and then switch over to LSI? Can you keep your reviews, sales rank info, etc?

 

[zoewinters]

Actually....I earn back the $39 CS fee in 6 books because I sell books direct and on those I make $6.50 per book.

LOL, Robin, fair enough! I can't compete with that.

 

[N. Gemini Sasson]

Moses, I found the only pain to going with Lightning Source was getting an account set up. I had to ask a couple questions to get through it, but their reps were helpful at each step and relatively prompt. Once that was done, it's really quite simple each time you add a book.

I do like that, using a 20% short discount, I earn the same amount per book no matter where it's sold (Amazon, B&B, Book Depository, etc.).

Here are my cost breakdowns using LSI: http://ngeminisasson.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-does-it-really-cost-to-self.html

 

[zoewinters]

One thing that really fascinates me and would make me change my decision...Zoe are you saying that by publishing through LS you can get your books on Amazon at a 20% discount rather than a 40% discount? If so this is HUGE and would defintely make me revise my advice.

Yes. I answered this on my blog too, but for the benefit of anyone following this thead (not sure if someone else has already answered this, if so, my apologies for being redundant), but yes, it's still 20% with Amazon.

To my way of thinking the only reason "not" to go with LSI would be, if you sell a LOT directly yourself, because I think CS does have a slight edge there, I'm not sure how you're crunching your numbers. In your profit are you subtracting out shipping or are you selling them direct live and in person? Or adding Shipping onto it?

With LSI direct, for a 300 page book you're paying: $5.40 per copy because it's 0.015 cents a page instead of 0.013 cents for books sold directly into distro. plus the 90 cent cover fee. So then it's $8.55 profit minus whatever you do for shipping unless you charge S&H)

Another time I think CS is better is if you aren't using your own ISBNs/don't have your own imprint, because the imprint/ISBNs thing is a bit of a "hidden cost" of working with LSI. But for those "already doing that anyway" it seems like the best bet, at least from where I'm sitting. But I don't sell direct. I just sell through distro.

Z

 

[zoewinters]

If you make a change to the book - both printers processes will want another proof. Which is another reason why I like CS as I can change the interior for less than $10 where with LS is costs me $37.50 + 30.00 = $67.50.

When you make a change at LSI, you can opt out of a new proof, but you have to be REALLY sure of your changes. Because it is a risk. But you can do it.

 

[MosesSiregarIII]

Moses, I found the only pain to going with Lightning Source was getting an account set up. I had to ask a couple questions to get through it, but their reps were helpful at each step and relatively prompt. Once that was done, it's really quite simple each time you add a book.

I do like that, using a 20% short discount, I earn the same amount per book no matter where it's sold (Amazon, B&B, Book Depository, etc.).

Here are my cost breakdowns using LSI: http://ngeminisasson.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-does-it-really-cost-to-self.html

Thanks. Do you know if I can use a pdf cover like the one I use with CS? What kind of format does the cover need to be in for LSI? I managed to use Fireworks (I know, I know) to make my novella's cover, but it looks really good.

 

[edwardgtalbot]

I for one am glad that Zoe reneged on her vow because this is a great discussion.  It does sound like getting the 20% discount and still getting on Amazon is huge. The direct sell margins do seem a bit better with CS, but that would probably not be a major factor for most of us.  So the only two reasons to go with CS aside from if you do mostly direct sales might be:

1.If you don't expect to sell many copies, you may have to worry about the costs of multiple proofs and the cost of an ISBN being a significant factor.

2.If LSI requires an up-front investment in expensive software (My createspace book looks excellent created solely with free software) and/or a bigger learning curve than the essentially non-existent one I experienced with Createspace.

I'll seriously consider LSI for my next book if the answer to #2 is that the same thing I did for CS will work for LSI - and if I buy that block of ISBNs, I'll certainly move my existing book to LSI also at that point. I still expect the vast majority of my sales to be ebooks, but once I start getting multiple books, that ISBN expense starts become less of a factor.

 

[N. Gemini Sasson]

Thanks. Do you know if I can use a pdf cover like the one I use with CS? What kind of format does the cover need to be in for LSI? I managed to use Fireworks (I know, I know) to make my novella's cover, but it looks really good.

I'm not sure how that would compare with what CS requires. You'd have to check their specs in their FAQs: http://www.lightningsource.com/, but yes, my graphic artist guy creates a pdf, drops it in the template, inputs the ISBN # and voila, you have a cover with the bar code on the back.

 

[MrPLD]

For doing covers at LSI, don't forget they have their template generator which makes doing covers obscenely easy (it even does the ISBN barcode for you and generates the appropriate boundaries.

 

[BrianKittrell]

Thanks. Do you know if I can use a pdf cover like the one I use with CS? What kind of format does the cover need to be in for LSI? I managed to use Fireworks (I know, I know) to make my novella's cover, but it looks really good.

Lightning Source has a script on their site that will generate a cover template for you. They generate the file in RGB mode.

After you put your graphics and text on the template, you will need to go through a conversion process to get the file to CMYK with 240% ink saturation (I believe, I have a guide that I follow each time I do the conversion at home), and you have to play with the color profiles to get it the way LSI wants it.

Their ink saturation is considered lower than most and is generally not standard (it's on the lower end of ink sats). I can't remember what CS's ink saturation is, but I believe it's either 300% or more. If someone has the figures, feel free to post them.

 

[MrPLD]

I can confirm the low-end saturation on LSI's covers, it's acceptable but if you want that "grab" factor you'll need to ramp it up.