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westlake503 said:
Brilliant ad hominem. That's what the illogical do. You should write cards. :)
Son, when I ad hominem, it's about as logical as it gets. And I make more money writing books, something your sort should try. Oh - but I forget, those who can do, those who can't, offer shady classes on how to do something they can't. Yep, elephant dung all right. And that, my boy, is what the smart folks call logic.
 

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westlake503 said:
*cavalry

New to kboards. Is that really so bad? Didn't know that disqualified me. I must be a hack!
Everyone has their two cents. A question was asked and I had bought the course to answer it. Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?

Who else here has done that? And if they haven't, are their common words a pontification? Treat it like a court case. Where's the proof to back their claim?
I got income reports from deploying the program. How about you? I think these guys are nice. I could be dead-wrong, but I wasn't born yesterday.
If you are legitimate, then you really shouldn't take these things personally. Anybody would be glad that you took the course, got good info, and it helped your writing career. People posting skepticism of the course doesn't really affect you, the person who has benefited from them. You still maintain your benefit, and if anything you have an advantage over anyone who is skeptical.

If you are not legitimate, then by all means, continue to go out of your way to make this into an argument.
 

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Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?
Not really. One post wonders, who never show up to contribute to the forum outside of doing the "it's totally legit I swear!" thing have no legitimacy. None. Like it or not, that's how it works. And not just here.

And thanks for the proofreading. I normally don't leave such egregious errors, but you got lucky that day.
 

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westlake503 said:
New to kboards. Is that really so bad? Didn't know that disqualified me. I must be a hack!
Everyone has their two cents. A question was asked and I had bought the course to answer it.

Assuming I'm not the course creator, doesn't that give me some sort of legitimacy?

Who else here has done that? And if they haven't, are their common words a pontification? Treat it like a court case. Where's the proof to back their claim?
I got income reports from deploying the program. How about you? I think these guys are nice. I could be dead-wrong, but I wasn't born yesterday.
There's nothing bad about being new to KBoards. Extolling the virtues of a company known to use dubious tactics? That's the bad part.

Even if you're not the course creator, who's to say you're not gaining something from trying to get people to sign up for it? We don't know you. You're anonymous. And you offered no proof of your claim. If you've got income reports, let's see them. I don't think anyone here is opposed to learning how to make money, as long as it's legit. But we've seen plenty of people drop in here and try to scam us, so we tend to be suspicious of brand new posters who swear that Suspicious Company #74 isn't a scam, but isn't willing to offer any proof.

On the other hand, the fact that the course focuses on Amazon audiobooks exclusively is a bit of a red flag. As is the fact that all of their books seem to be gone from the Amazon store entirely. If they were on the up and up, shouldn't they have books for sale on the platform their program uses exclusively? You would think that, for a company with such awesome info to teach, they should have their books up for sale on Amazon, and those books would be selling like hotcakes? So why aren't they?
 

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westlake503 said:
Okay, that was kinda funny about the Wayne's World thing. I see that. However, the more interesting thing you said was trusting what you read here! This is where I got scammed into buying an eBook on publishing. It was utter rubbish.
Point taken. It's always caveat emptor.

I was referring more to the breadth of advice one can get here on KB over a period of time. I've only been here maybe two to three years... Seen a lot of advice given by authors who seem to have books that sell.
 

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When someone is trying to sell a course to authors about marketing, the first question to ask is: Is this person an author? The second question is to look them up on Amazon and elsewhere to see how well their books are doing and what they are writing, besides how to sell courses and how to market. If that evidence is missing, the course is likely crap.
 

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Ive always thought that by the time someone is ready to share their brilliant secret ( in the form of a course/book) the time for it to be effective has already passed.

Here is another way to look at it. The courses that speak about their students making 25k a month, why are they willing to sell it to you for just a few hundred bucks? Why are they not hiring a team, paying them 20 an hour even 30, to do the work and make so much more for themselves?

But you can learn from them, watch how they promote, get your heart racing and your mind dreaming. They are very good at that and you can use some of the skills for your own marketing.




 

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It's subtle - the Mikkelsen Twins are not lying about anything, because they don't need to lie.

Their goal is to make passive income from the internet. That's it. That's their only goal. They're not actually 'writers' at all, they just see Amazon / KDP as a useful route to a steady passive income. They're probably actually fairly good at achieving that.

Their course, I assume, teaches exactly that too - What is the fastest way to make money out of the Amazon system. The thing is, that's a very different goal to why most of us come to kboards. It may even be directly opposed to it, if they encourage flooding the market with too much crap.

Some of their ideas I found on marketing were interesting, but once I realized their approach to writing was basically to be as shallow as possible, it really seemed not worth my time.

Trioxin 245 said:
Ive always thought that by the time someone is ready to share their brilliant secret ( in the form of a course/book) the time for it to be effective has already passed.
Yeah that's a really good point. It's always too late, by the time its being advertised to the whole world.
 

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Amazon / KDP as a useful route to a steady passive income
Ask any real writer, putting out good books and making money, how true that "passive income" crap is. They'll tell you it's a big fat lie. Look at posts here or anywhere about marketing, how much harder it is, how much more it costs, how much effort you have to put into keeping up with what works and what doesn't. And how you have to keep publishing, keep working the back list. For anyone other than the SEO folks, who see KDP as a cash cow and have no real interest in writing.
 

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Doglover said:
You sound familiar. Did you, by any chance, give similar testimonials to all those affiliate marketing gurus, you know the ones with the secret code to make six figures a month and have pictures of yachts, mansions and Lamborghinis all over their newsletters.

Still we need a laugh after this year and I do so enjoy these pathetic little attempts to legitimatise what is obviously a con with a great bit capital C.
Are you talking about that IM Rhys guy? Or that other guy that reviews all these courses and then always recommends his small business leads system? Yeah, I've seen that too. I've only given one testimonial and I don't think that person even owns a car! So no, I'm not in that space. However, I understand where you're coming from. 99.9% of people scam. Let me know when you find the Secret Code!
 

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jb1111 said:
I'll repeat what I said earlier upthread: one is probably much better off getting advice from places like KB (and perhaps a few indie author reddits and other forums) where real indie authors hang out. Some of them -- including a couple in this thread -- are quite successful and can give a newbie better advice. Shortcuts can get you into trouble.
I see. So any newbie is illegitimate. Great culture! And believe non-experts here more than others giving free tutorials over YouTube that try to sell a course that may or may not work. Got it! I guess I'm that ONE person on the planet who took a paid course and made more than my money back. Life is so great.
 

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Drathaar said:
These two jokers have lost their Amazon accounts - KDP, Merch, and ACX. Before handing them your money, ask yourself why. Black hat tactics. Amazon always finds out. They've lost the support of all the reputable people in the business. They started out with a bang. I liked them. I even bought their course, something I'm not proud of now. Ashamed is a better word.

They have, or had, a video about getting review swaps. Not saying they were bad, saying you had to do them. Christian lost his KDP account for using software to translate books to Spanish. I pay a translater just to translate t-shirts! He used software for books. That's the kind of shady crap you'll learn from these two. Don't do it. A lot of people have lost their accounts because of these guys. Don't be one of them.

One of the things they taught was to find two top-selling authors in audiobook niches, switch their names and have co-authors (Jack Roberts and Julie Harrison become Jack Harrison and Julie Roberts.) If you could talk a narrator into using a pen name, you'd have one for the author and one for the narrator. They figured out author names are searchable keywords. It didn't matter what order they were in. This got people banned.

ACX banned all their accounts and really don't like them. If you ever talk to their customer service, never mention you took their course (if you did) them might just instaban you.
Actually, that's one of the first things they admit in the course. How to get banned and how to avoid it. They admitted to that and worse. They were black hat, but they had to do it right to stay in business. Isn't that valuable advice? How to not get your account closed? Perception is reality. I do not think these guys are publishing gods, but exercise reason here. These are the facts.
 

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David VanDyke said:
Nah, that's not libel. Not in the USA anyway. If it were, the links below would be filled with libel. Lots of libel.

Do your own research to find out whether these things might be scams or not. Then make your own decision. Don't believe any single poster's opinion. Add up the weight of reports and decide for yourself where you want to send your hard-earned money.

Here's a few I found on page 1 of a search:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/gh23d7/mikkelsen_twins_scam/

https://www.scampulse.com/mikkelsen-twins-reviews

https://scambusters.org/eviltwin.html
Clearly you don't understand law. It IS libelous if you can prove it. I think they can it if falls outside of the first amendment and if it causes damages [sales, character, etc]. Pretty basic, really. But who cares, I really don't! I'm just not corrected here by your speculation on American jurisprudence. https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/can-i-sue-someone-who-says-or-writes-something-defamatory-about-me/. Interesting articles though. They fall into the first amendment clause. However, the twins could follow up as well as the FTC. If there is a legitimate complaint the consumer protection agency verifies, 100% of their stuff would have to come down. They're still up. In the end, neither party wants to follow through. It's a headache for both sides. It's sad how people will get scammed, but entrepreneurs have rights too. If you ever sold a book, you have rights too.
 

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westlake503 said:
I see. So any newbie is illegitimate. Great culture! And believe non-experts here more than others giving free tutorials over YouTube that try to sell a course that may or may not work. Got it! I guess I'm that ONE person on the planet who took a paid course and made more than my money back. Life is so great.
Any newbie who joins only to legitimise a service that is dubious at best, is suspicious. Surely you can see that. Newbies who come to discuss their writing, publishing, or simple discuss writing with other writers, do not come under suspicion. Now if someone with say, 1000 posts, came along and declared that these scammers are legit, we might listen.
 

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westlake503 said:
Actually, that's one of the first things they admit in the course. How to get banned and how to avoid it. They admitted to that and worse. They were black hat, but they had to do it right to stay in business. Isn't that valuable advice? How to not get your account closed? Perception is reality. I do not think these guys are publishing gods, but exercise reason here. These are the facts.
Genuine writers and publishers don't need to be told how not to get banned; we already know. Are you saying it's a good investment to pay nearly $1000 for a course on common sense? Do I get a degree in the bleeding obvious?
 

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westlake503 said:
Clearly you don't understand law. It IS libelous if you can prove it. I think they can it if falls outside of the first amendment and if it causes damages [sales, character, etc]. Pretty basic, really. But who cares, I really don't! I'm just not corrected here by your speculation on American jurisprudence. https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/can-i-sue-someone-who-says-or-writes-something-defamatory-about-me/. Interesting articles though. They fall into the first amendment clause. However, the twins could follow up as well as the FTC. If there is a legitimate complaint the consumer protection agency verifies, 100% of their stuff would have to come down. They're still up. In the end, neither party wants to follow through. It's a headache for both sides. It's sad how people will get scammed, but entrepreneurs have rights too. If you ever sold a book, you have rights too.
I'm English - we don't have any amendments, first, second or otherwise. The law here is it is only libellous if it isn't true. Added to that, I don't think the law has caught up with the internet; libel needs to be written on paper. I could be wrong. It does happen.
 

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westlake503 said:
Clearly you don't understand law. It IS libelous if you can prove it. I think they can it if falls outside of the first amendment and if it causes damages [sales, character, etc]. Pretty basic, really. But who cares, I really don't! I'm just not corrected here by your speculation on American jurisprudence. https://www.freeadvice.com/legal/can-i-sue-someone-who-says-or-writes-something-defamatory-about-me/. Interesting articles though. They fall into the first amendment clause. However, the twins could follow up as well as the FTC. If there is a legitimate complaint the consumer protection agency verifies, 100% of their stuff would have to come down. They're still up. In the end, neither party wants to follow through. It's a headache for both sides. It's sad how people will get scammed, but entrepreneurs have rights too. If you ever sold a book, you have rights too.
You have forgotten about business ethics which secretly influences legal aspects. It seems to me that a decent person should not make explicit accents on the legal side.
 

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westlake503 said:
I see. So any newbie is illegitimate. Great culture! And believe non-experts here more than others giving free tutorials over YouTube that try to sell a course that may or may not work. Got it! I guess I'm that ONE person on the planet who took a paid course and made more than my money back. Life is so great.
No, what I said was caveat emptor, especially for newbies.

Newbies aren't illegitimate. They're newbies. They don't have the experience of people who have been in the game for years, some of whom have -- through trial and error -- become successful, some even wildly successful. Some of them here, from what I can ascertain, are indeed experts. An expert is someone who is successful at a trade or craft, and can live off of it. Some of the posters here match that definition.

You claim to have made more than your investment back by taking a YT course. Good on ya. I won't knock your right to state that here, and tell others that it worked for you, and I haven't knocked you for it.

There are KB'ers who swear by some marketing seminars, too. They say it works for them.

I just think any newbie needs to be careful with whatever advice they receive.

As for the Mikkelsen twins, yeah, they reminded me of Wayne's World without the Van Halen playing in the background. But I will give props to the one guy admitting he screwed up and lost his account permanently. I'll grant him that much. I saw that video. He was at least straightforward about what he did.
 

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They were black hat, but they had to do it right to stay in business. Isn't that valuable advice? How to not get your account closed?
They had to find a way to get around rules, you mean? To cheat a system, to break rules, not because they're harmful, but because the rule breaker wants an easier, quicker, better way to steal money?

Amazon already gives us valuable advice to avoid getting our accounts terminated. No workarounds are needed. No thousand dollar courses to learn how to game the system. No easy, sneaky way to get ahead of anyone else. There are thousands of people who follow the rules and make very good money. Some make winning lottery ticket money. They don't have to worry about getting caught at something they shouldn't be doing. They don't have to find a way to break any rules.

Anyone who thinks finding ways around the rules aren't in this for the writing, they're looking for easy money, and they don't care that every time they get caught, Amazon amps up the rules and makes it harder and harder for honest people to find their dream as a writer. We've seen it with KU, we've seen it with simple things like tags, or being able to add images to our sales page, or every other little thing that made it better for those of us willing to follow the terms of the contract we signed.

But you keep on, dig that hole deeper, keep finding excuses for the cheaters. I for one don't care about you, or anyone like you. When you get caught, don't come looking for sympathy here, because you won't get it. Except maybe from that other person who signs up just to support something that's wrong. That will be your solace.
 
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