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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We're into the second half of the book with this week's read; Chapters 21-25. 

Are you anxious to get to the end and find out what happens?  Are you okay with this wonderful book ending, knowing there are five more in the series (so far)? 

Have you highlighted a lot?  For me, there are too many great parts in this book to bother highlighting.  I would rather read every word again. 

At this point, who do you find yourself quoting more ... Claire or Jamie?

This week's recipe. 

QUICK CAKE WITH COCONUT AND ALMONDS

1-1/2 cups reduced-fat baking mix (like reduced-fat Bisquick)
½ cup plus 2 Tbs Splenda Granular
½ tsp baking powder
2/3 cup 1% or skim milk
1 large egg, lightly beaten
1 Tbs canola oil
½ tsp vanilla
6 Tbs shredded coconut
1 Tbs brown sugar
3 Tbs sliced almonds
1 Tbs melted margarine

1. Preheat oven to 350.  Spray 8" square baking pan with nonstick cooking spray.
2. Measure baking mix, ½ cup Splenda, and baking powder into a large mixing bowl.  Add the milk, egg, oil and vanilla.  Stir just until smooth and spoon into prepared pan.
3. Place the coconut, 2 Tbs Splenda, brown sugar, and almonds in a small bowl.  Add the margarine and mix.  Sprinkle this mixture over the top of the cake.
4. Bake for 20 minutes or until center springs back when gently touched.  Cool on rack.

Calories 160
Carbs 20 grams
Protein 3 grams
Fat 7 grams (2 sat)
Fiber 1 gram
Sodium 270 mgs

Diabetic exchange = 1.5 Carb, 1 Fat
WW = 4 points
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Chapter 16 "One Fine Day"

11. What is significant about Jamie catching the fish for Claire?

Chapter 17 "We Meet a Beggar"

1. How has Jamie and Claire's relationship changed since their wedding?

Chapter 18 "Raiders in the Rocks"

2. Do you feel Jamie is taking advantage of Claire by sleeping with her after the skirmish (when the men are nearby)?

3. How did you feel about Claire's training in the art of how to dirk a man?

Chapter 19 "The Waterhorse"

4. Why was this incident at Loch Ness significant to the story?

Chapter 20 "Deserted Glades"

5. At this point in the story, do you see any significance in Claire receiving a dragonfly in amber from Hugh Munro along with a poem?

Then let amorous kisses dwell
On our lips, begin and tell
A Thousand and a Hundred Score
A Hundred and a Thousand More

"...a bit more high-class than your usual fortune cookie." - Claire to Jamie

6. It is at this point that we learn that Dougal may have been the one to shoot Jamie.  How does this change your feelings toward Dougal, or does it reinforce those feelings?

7. When confronted, Claire has to kill a man to prevent him from raping her. Does it seem like this act comes to easy to her?

8. After beginning to find happiness with Jamie, is it right for her to try to escape to Craigh Na Dun? (Which occurs the day after they are attacked in the glade.)

 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Chapter 16 "One Fine Day"

11. What is significant about Jamie catching the fish for Claire?


He was showing Claire that he can provide for her.

Chapter 17 "We Meet a Beggar"

1. How has Jamie and Claire's relationship changed since their wedding?


In one way, they are a bit shyer with each other, because they were friends for only a short time. Then suddenly they were married without giving intimacy a chance to grow gradually. But I think the fact that they are so compatible physically is rapidly breaking down the barriers.

Chapter 18 "Raiders in the Rocks"

2. Do you feel Jamie is taking advantage of Claire by sleeping with her after the skirmish (when the men are nearby)?


It's not something I would feel comfortable with, but Highland crofters are used to whole families sleeping in the same room and they wouldn't feel as inhibited. But Jamie wasn't raised that way. He seems to be a little more civilized and sophisticated and should have realized how difficult it would be for Claire. He should have at least taken her away from the camp.

3. How did you feel about Claire's training in the art of how to dirk a man?

It was necessary considering the times. They had just gone through a skirmish and anything might have happened to her. I found it odd, thought, that they kept changing her intended victims as they grew tired, but kept her at it without a break.

Chapter 19 "The Waterhorse"

4. Why was this incident at Loch Ness significant to the story?


Not sure in the context of that chapter. I think it was more significant that Peter saw her apparently talking to a monster. We'll find out more about it later in the story.

Chapter 20 "Deserted Glades"

5. At this point in the story, do you see any significance in Claire receiving a dragonfly in amber from Hugh Munro along with a poem?


Then let amorous kisses dwell
On our lips, begin and tell
A Thousand and a Hundred Score
A Hundred and a Thousand More


"...a bit more high-class than your usual fortune cookie." - Claire to Jamie

It's a moment frozen in time. Is Claire frozen in this time? Will she ever get back to Frank? I think it is symbolic of her situation.

6. It is at this point that we learn that Dougal may have been the one to shoot Jamie.. How does this change your feelings toward Dougal, or does it reinforce those feelings?

Jamie thought it more likely that Rupert had shot him, but even so, it would have been on Dougal's orders. Since Rupert is an accomplished marksman, it appears that they only wanted to stop Jamie, not kill him. Jamie was trying to make a break for home when he was shot. Does Dougal just want to keep Jamie under MacKenzie control, or is there some reason he wants to keep Jamie away from Lallybroch? I'm not sure Dougal knows what he wants, himself. Even he doesn't understand his own convoluted thought processes.

7. When confronted, Claire has to kill a man to prevent him from raping her. Does it seem like this act comes to easy to her?

Not at first, but she quickly comes to see the necessity. It's kill or be killed. She's seen enough of war and violent death to fully understand the consequences of what she's doing.

8. After beginning to find happiness with Jamie, is it right for her to try to escape to Craigh Na Dun? (Which occurs the day after they are attacked in the glade.)

That incident frightened Claire badly. I think it brings home the point to her more forcefully that she doesn't belong in this time; she doesn't understand it at all. She also realizes that as much as Jamie intends to protect her, that isn't always possible.
 

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It seemed like Claire's training seemed more like a show than training.

That's really interesting about the dragonfly in amber. I didn't think about it representing Claire being frozen in time, but that makes sense.

At first I thought Dougal was kind of a romantic figure, but as time goes on he seems less likeable. Perhaps he is a very complex character with conflicting parts of his personality, like many of us.

Claire seems to be trying to escape without really thinking about whether she wants to still or not. I kept thinking, wait a minute, what are you feeling before you run off to Craigh Na Dun




 

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Chapter 16 "One Fine Day"

11. What is significant about Jamie catching the fish for Claire?
Jamie told Claire when they were married that he would take care of her, even if it was just living in a haystack. This is tangible proof that he will take care of her and provide for her.

Chapter 17 "We Meet a Beggar"

1. How has Jamie and Claire's relationship changed since their wedding?
They are trying to find their way with each other. Jamie is used to being on the run and not being able to really trust. With Claire, he can be himself and that is difficult to do. Claire, cares deeply for Jamie, but is afraid to let herself care too much, because she knows she is planning to leave, and doesn’t want to get to close to Jamie and hurt him more than she has too. She is also walking on eggshells, because she can’t be completely honest.

Chapter 18 "Raiders in the Rocks"

2. Do you feel Jamie is taking advantage of Claire by sleeping with her after the skirmish (when the men are nearby)?
He definitely took advantage of Claire. However, in his defense, his actions are not out of character for the time. Jamie is torn between his desire for Claire and trying to be sensitive to her feelings. I think his feelings just got away from him.

3. How did you feel about Claire's training in the art of how to dirk a man?
I think it was essential that Claire learn to take care of herself. She is living in a very dangerous time and place, and Jamie may not always be around to protect her. She also needed to know she could kill if she had to to  save her life.

Chapter 19 "The Waterhorse"

4. Why was this incident at Loch Ness significant to the story?
If people could travel through time, why not animals? Although being seen with the beast could add to the suspicion about who or what Claire really is.

Chapter 20 "Deserted Glades"

5. At this point in the story, do you see any significance in Claire receiving a dragonfly in amber from Hugh Munro along with a poem?

Then let amorous kisses dwell
On our lips, begin and tell
A Thousand and a Hundred Score
A Hundred and a Thousand More

"...a bit more high-class than your usual fortune cookie." - Claire to Jamie
Claire is trapped just like the dragonfly. I think the poem is a good picture of how Jamie and Claire are beginning to see their relationship.

6. It is at this point that we learn that Dougal may have been the one to shoot Jamie.  How does this change your feelings toward Dougal, or does it reinforce those feelings?
Dougal continues to be an enigma. Was he shooting Jamie to keep him from being taken by the English or was it an opportunity to rid himself of a possible threat to the head of the clan?

7. When confronted, Claire has to kill a man to prevent him from raping her. Does it seem like this act comes to easy to her?
I don’t think it was easy. Her sense of self-preservation just took over. She was terrified about what would happen to her and to Jamie. She had to time everything properly, otherwise they would both be killed.

8. After beginning to find happiness with Jamie, is it right for her to try to escape to Craigh Na Dun? (Which occurs the day after they are attacked in the glade.)
The fact that she was falling in love with Jamie, and he with her made it more important that she try to leave. The longer she delayed, the harder it would be to leave. She was afraid if she waited, she wouldn’t be able to leave Jamie. The attack also emphasized the fact that this was a very dangerous place for her to be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
MaureenH said:
Claire seems to be trying to escape without really thinking about whether she wants to still or not. I kept thinking, wait a minute, what are you feeling before you run off to Craigh Na Dun
I like the way you put that. Her goal from the beginning was to get back home. If someone is kidnapped, no matter how benign the captors, you want to get back where you belong; a place that is safe and familiar. Clair has found a place in the Clan, but it is not her place.
 

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gertiekindle said:
I like the way you put that. Her goal from the beginning was to get back home. If someone is kidnapped, no matter how benign the captors, you want to get back where you belong; a place that is safe and familiar. Clair has found a place in the Clan, but it is not her place.
Well, yes, but. . . there's a well known condition known as "stockholm syndrome" where the kidnapped person can begin to identify with his/her captors. So though they do still want to get home, the longer they are with the kidnappers, the more they begin to identify with them and at some point may even stop trying to escape. If they are eventually rescued they frequently have a really difficult transition back to their 'regular' life because of the confusion they're experiencing. No personal experience, mind you, but I can't be the only one who's watched a lot of CSI type TV. :)

Anyway, Claire's situation is similar so her response is not entirely unreasonable. I'm guessing that, assuming she does get back to her own time, she'll experience confusion and disorientation. . . both because of the whole time travel issue and because she is really beginning to 'belong' in 18th century Scotland.

Ann
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ann Von Hagel said:
Well, yes, but. . . there's a well known condition known as "stockholm syndrome" where the kidnapped person can begin to identify with his/her captors. So though they do still want to get home, the longer they are with the kidnappers, the more they begin to identify with them and at some point may even stop trying to escape. If they are eventually rescued they frequently have a really difficult transition back to their 'regular' life because of the confusion they're experiencing. No personal experience, mind you, but I can't be the only one who's watched a lot of CSI type TV. :)
I thought about that. Patty Hearst is one of the most famous cases. I don't think Claire has been with the Scots long enough to feel that way. Nor have they confined her or mistreated her in any way. She's still thinking of 1945/46 and Frank as where she belongs.
 

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gertiekindle said:
I thought about that. Patty Hearst is one of the most famous cases. I don't think Claire has been with the Scots long enough to feel that way. Nor have they confined her or mistreated her in any way. She's still thinking of 1945/46 and Frank as where she belongs.
See, to me, she doesn't seem to be much. Oh, every now and again it occurs to her that she's not really supposed to be there -- and some times she acts on that. But, to me, it seems that, for the most part, she's fairly content and not too concerned about when or if she'll get back.

My first reading, of course. You may see more for having been through the book before. . . .

Ann
 

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Can I just say how much I love this book?  Every time I think I know where the story is going, I'm surprised again.  I love it.  It is never a book I would have picked up myself.  I'm so glad to be in this book club.

Chapter 16 "One Fine Day"

11. What is significant about Jamie catching the fish for Claire?  Proving that he will take care of her as he promised.  Showing off maybe.


Chapter 17 "We Meet a Beggar"

1. How has Jamie and Claire's relationship changed since their wedding?  In some ways they seem more comfortable with one another but also there are times when I feel like they are very distant. 

Chapter 18 "Raiders in the Rocks"

2. Do you feel Jamie is taking advantage of Claire by sleeping with her after the skirmish (when the men are nearby)?  I didn't feel like he was taking advantage of her but I felt he wasn't being attentive to her need for privacy.  He always seems to be so attentive to her needs but didn't in this circumstance.


3. How did you feel about Claire's training in the art of how to dirk a man?  I knew when I read that part that it wouldn't be long until she had to use her new skills.

Chapter 19 "The Waterhorse"

4. Why was this incident at Loch Ness significant to the story?  I'm wondering that myself.  Peter kept eyeing her suspiciously.  I found that interesting.  I bet something will come up again with Peter accusing her of something.

Chapter 20 "Deserted Glades"

5. At this point in the story, do you see any significance in Claire receiving a dragonfly in amber from Hugh Munro along with a poem?  I didn't at the time but I do think some previous posters are on to something when saying it signifies Claire being frozen in time.  Good point.  I didn't think of it that way.

Then let amorous kisses dwell
On our lips, begin and tell
A Thousand and a Hundred Score
A Hundred and a Thousand More

"...a bit more high-class than your usual fortune cookie." - Claire to Jamie

6. It is at this point that we learn that Dougal may have been the one to shoot Jamie.  How does this change your feelings toward Dougal, or does it reinforce those feelings?  It reinforces why I feel so skeptical of him all the time.

7. When confronted, Claire has to kill a man to prevent him from raping her. Does it seem like this act comes to easy to her?  It seemed easy to her but I guess it would be easy for me to if I was about to be raped.


8. After beginning to find happiness with Jamie, is it right for her to try to escape to Craigh Na Dun? (Which occurs the day after they are attacked in the glade.)  Just when I think she will forget about getting back to Craigh Na Dun, she surprises me.

 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Ann Von Hagel said:
See, to me, she doesn't seem to be much. Oh, every now and again it occurs to her that she's not really supposed to be there -- and some times she acts on that. But, to me, it seems that, for the most part, she's fairly content and not too concerned about when or if she'll get back.

My first reading, of course. You may see more for having been through the book before. . . .

Ann
I see it as biding her time and making the best of a bad situation. As Frank said; she is the most terrifyingly practical person he has ever met. ;)

Let's keep in mind your thoughts on this situation, because they are good thoughts. Remind me after we finish Chp. 25 and we'll talk about it more then.

Heidi said:
Can I just say how much I love this book? Every time I think I know where the story is going, I'm surprised again. I love it. It is never a book I would have picked up myself. I'm so glad to be in this book club.
That's what we like to hear. ;D
 

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What a lot of great insight in these posts!  I know that the next time I pick up Outlander I'll be reading it with a whole new view.  That's what I'm especially loving about this book klub.  Thanks Gertie!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
SongbirdVB said:
What a lot of great insight in these posts! I know that the next time I pick up Outlander I'll be reading it with a whole new view. That's what I'm especially loving about this book klub. Thanks Gertie!
You're very welcome. Good members make a good book club, and we've got great people here.

I'm seeing a lot more, too.
 

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tlshaw said:
I am enjoying reading the answers to the questions, but where are our guys? I want to hear the male perspective.
How many guys are actually reading it? (besides Mike) DH was wondering why I was so into this book, so I let him read a few of the juicy bits - he didn't quite get the story line, but he still enjoys the fringe benefits...
 

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Ok, since it is just us girls, I have to say this. Jamie was a virgin on his wedding night, right? On his wedding night and the next few days, he apparently was a very fast learner - or Claire was a very good teacher. However, Jamie seems to be a much better lover than Frank. Part of this may be the fact that Jamie was about 15 years younger than Frank.

I know my face is probably beet red now, but I just had to say this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
tlshaw said:
Ok, since it is just us girls, I have to say this. Jamie was a virgin on his wedding night, right? On his wedding night and the next few days, he apparently was a very fast learner - or Claire was a very good teacher. However, Jamie seems to be a much better lover than Frank. Part of this may be the fact that Jamie was about 15 years younger than Frank.

I know my face is probably beet red now, but I just had to say this.
"There was a powerful urgency in him that roused me to response despite his awkwardness."

"As yet too hungry and too clumsy for tenderness, still he made love with a sort of unflagging joy that made me think that male virginity might be a highly underrated commodity."

See, Claire thinks so, too. And so do the rest of us. :)
 

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tlshaw said:
However, Jamie seems to be a much better lover than Frank. Part of this may be the fact that Jamie was about 15 years younger than Frank.
I don't think it's a spoiler to say that all 6 books in the series span probably 27+ years... and therefore I can tell you that his age ends up having very little to do with it... after all, practice makes perfect!!
 

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bosslady, you have a very good point.

I think this is another distinction between Frank and Jamie. Claire talks about Frank being a skillful lover, but he was very much a man of his time, when women were not supposed to enjoy sex. Jamie was, however, very much in love and in tune with Claire. His major focus was her happiness and pleasure. In turn, she gave to him, because he was her focus. I think this is part of the reason she was so torn about going back. She felt duty bound, and loved Frank. She tried to keep Jamie at a distance and would not admit to herself how deeply she was falling for him.
 
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