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So much happened in these chapters, I know everyone is going to have lots of comments. 

I'll have to post this week's recipe tomorrow so let's get straight to the good stuff.

Chapter 21 "Un Mauvais Quart d'Heure After Another"

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries
to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just
reckless?

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

Chapter 22 "Reckonings"

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire?

12. At this point, what did you think was the significance of Alex MacGregor's Bible being in
Jamie's possession?

Chapter 23 "Return to Leoch"

13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know
at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire?

14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for
Claire?

"Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own." - Jamie to Claire after giving her his
ring.

Part 4--Outlander

"A Whiff Of Brimstone"
Chapters 24 & 25

1. What are your impressions of the scene with Donas and Hamish?

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?

3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from?

4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham)

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?

6. What did you think of Geillis and Claire's conversation about witchcraft (note: Geillis has the
Grimoire of the Comte St. Germain)?

7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire?

8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after
Claire was tricked?

9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The
Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it?

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding
her origins? Jamie's reactions?

12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or
testing her love for him?

13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them?

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch?

 

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Discussion Starter #2
Chapter 21 "Un Mauvais Quart d'Heure After Another"

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just reckless?

Claire figures she's in for it anyway, so why not get a little of her own back. She's not about to act the helpless female and cower in front of him.

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

Yes. He told her what he would do, and he meant it. No matter how he felt about it personally, what he did was absolutely necessary for the men. They needed to see justice done. Even though we may cringe (or worse) at that type of punishment, for the times, it was necessary. The Clan is only as strong as its weakest link and each member of the group must pull his/her weight.

Chapter 22 "Reckonings"

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire?


Considering the times, yes. The proof is how the men treated Claire both before and after the punishment. At first, they give her the cold shoulder and could have done worse since Claire's actions might have resulted in one or more deaths. Afterwards, they rib her good-naturedly, and later find excuses to stop along the way to give her a chance to rest. In their eyes, she's "paid her debt to society" and no grudges are held.

12. At this point, what did you think was the significance of Alex MacGregor's Bible being in Jamie's possession?

I think it had something to do with Black Jack. I think he made the same proposals to Alex as he made to Jamie and Alex died or committed suicide rather than submit.

Chapter 23 "Return to Leoch"

13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire?


No matter how I was beginning to feel about Jamie, I think I would have wanted to go back home. I'm certainly nothing like Claire, and I wouldn't have survived long.

14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for Claire?

Claire is just beginning to understand she has feelings for Jamie. I think her love for Frank is withering because she is having a hard time separating Frank from Black Jack. Prior to this, she kept mistaking Black Jack for Frank; now the two are merging and she's having a hard time remembering Frank without thinking of Jack.

I think Jamie's love for Claire is stronger at this point. I don't think even he realizes the depth of his feelings, but he admits them to himself and to Claire when he says:

"Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own."

These chapters are pivotal in establishing the relationship between Jamie and Claire. Jamie has revealed so much of himself to Claire; good and bad; gentleness and temper, that she is bound to feel a deeper connection to him.

Claire's social gaffe with Mr. Bainbridge was nothing compared to her putting the MacKenzies in danger, yet Frank not only didn't back her up, he was embarrassed. Jamie gives her justice in accordance with the rules of the Clan, then gives her a way to feel better about herself and what happened.

"A Whiff Of Brimstone"
Chapters 24 & 25

1. What are your impressions of the scene with Donas and Hamish?


Hamish is certainly proving himself to have the makings of the next leader of the Clan. He was probably scared to death, but was determined to ride Donas.

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?

LoL. I was especially impressed how he handled Hamish's desire to ride a better horse. He judged the boy was ready, and eased him into a horse he could handle.

3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from?

Laheer. No question.

4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham)

The same reason women are attracted to him. He's big and strong and I think someone like Sandringham would like to be dominated by him. On the other hand, I think Black Jack would like to dominate Jamie rather than the other way around.

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?

Once again, Claire's 20th century sensibilities are leading her into trouble. Gellie, in her usual self-serving manner, abandons Claire to her fate. Jamie is once again there when she needs him. Gellie has already warned Claire that there is talk about her in the village. Now, she's picked up a changeling baby and the parents probably saw her do it. The baby is dead. She's already had a run-in with the priest. I think it's pretty obvious there are serious times ahead for Claire.

6. What did you think of Geillis and Claire's conversation about witchcraft (note: Geillis has the Grimoire of the Comte St. Germain)

I don't think Claire knows what to believe. She, herself, doesn't believe in witchcraft, but I think she accepts that Gellie does.

7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire?

I think it was hypnosis, mixed with some kind of drug in the smoke. But why was Gellie immune to it? The smoke was on her side of the bowl. I thought Claire's answer to Gellie's question was interesting. She said, "I came;" meaning she came through the stones. Gellie knows, but wants confirmation.

8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after Claire was tricked?

I was horrified, and scared for Claire. I've read this many times, but it still has the power to pull me into Claire's feelings.

9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it?

I have read The Crucible, but that was too long ago for me to remember any details. I would think it was pretty typical of the witch trials of that time. DG does her research well.

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

Father Bain had to be somewhat educated in order to become a priest, but he has no broad experience of the world. He is nearly as ignorant and superstitious as his parishioners.

Ned Gowan, on the other hand, is a bold adventurer and a mighty champion. He did manage to wring some concessions from the examiners, but where was he the next day? There is no mention of Ned once it is announced that they cannot reach a decision. I'm guessing that he prudently slipped away, knowing there was nothing more he could do.

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding her origins? Jamie's reactions?

I held my breath through the whole rescue. Again, even though I have read this many times, I still barely breathe. I can just see Jamie, his powerful frame pushing through the crowd, ready to fight Satan himself for Claire.

That being the case, Jamie still needs answers. If he's going to fight for Claire and protect her, he has to know what he is facing and why. I think Jamie believe Claire because he has no choice. She promised him honesty, and he knows she has given him the truth, as hard as it must be to fathom.

12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or testing her love for him?

I think it was a bit of both. Jamie tried hard to suppress his desire for Claire to choose him, but he is only human ... much as he seems much larger than life. In the end, the rightness of sending Claire back to her own time won out. He knows it's where she belongs and that she will be safe there.

13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them?

No. Just flat out NO.

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch?

Relieved. I know that is where Jamie belongs, and now Claire belongs with Jamie. It's the right thing to do.

These chapters always get to me. There are some powerful emotions going on here. I remember my first reading of their return to Leoch, their fight and Jamie's determination to make Claire his own. I had to put the book down for a while at that point. That scene wasn't about sex. It was about two people who are struggling with their own feelings; Jamie acknowledging his own and Claire fighting against hers. In the end, they are forging what will be an unbreakable bond between the two of them. Jamie and Claire. It's who they are. Not Jamie. Not Claire. Jamie and Claire.

Somebody hand me the Kleenex.
 

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Chapter 21 "Un Mauvais Quart d'Heure After Another"

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries
to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just
reckless? Oh I think she felt very confident and knew she had nothign to lose but everything to gain. She is a strong, independent, stubborn woman.
10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did? Yes, she had been warned and Jamie followed through. It is all done out of love and to protect her and he has to do it because of the other men and what their opinion of him would be if he didn't, loss of respect probably.
Chapter 22 "Reckonings"

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire? I think it was the time and that's what men did then.
12. At this point, what did you think was the significance of Alex MacGregor's Bible being in
Jamie's possession? Don't know

Chapter 23 "Return to Leoch"

13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know
at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire? Stayed with Jamie

14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for
Claire? Jamie's love for Claire but she is falling fast.

"Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own." - Jamie to Claire after giving her his
ring.

Part 4--Outlander

"A Whiff Of Brimstone"
Chapters 24 & 25

1. What are your impressions of the scene with Donas and Hamish? I thought he was afraid but brave and needed to prove tohimself he could ride Donas.
2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish? It cracked me up and I was LOL
3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from? Immediately thought it was LaHeer

4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham) Because he is handsome, has a great body, courageous and strong
5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling? Claire's nature to want to help and nuture regardless if it places her in danger
6. What did you think of Geillis and Claire's conversation about witchcraft (note: Geillis has the
Grimoire of the Comte St. Germain)? I think Claire was confused

7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire? I thought she was drugged with something
8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after
Claire was tricked? Frightened. The writing is so great that I almost felt as if I were there.
9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The
Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it? Have not read The Crucible but have read other books and movies and I think that is the way witch hunts and trials were handled in that era
10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial? Disappointed and angry with Father Bain Thought Ned Gowan did all he could do.11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding
her origins? I admired his courage and was holding my breath hoping he would get to her in time. Jamie's reactions? I think Jamie has trusted Claire since the day they met and she took care of his injuries. He knows she is an honest person.
12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or
testing her love for him? I was nervous because I wanted her to stay with Jamie, they belong together. I think he loved her enough to let her go and perhaps he did want to see if she loved him as much.
13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them? No way!

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch? I was happy and excited that he was returning home and taking Claire with him. She would meet his sister and see where he spent the first years of his life. They need to be together.
 

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Chapter 21 "Un Mauvais Quart d'Heure After Another"

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just reckless?
I don’t think Claire still fully understood how dangerous Black Jack was. After her interview at the inn, you would think she would have learned. Also, maybe this was an attempt to cover up her own fear and possibly rattle him or buy time.

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?
He was still dealing with the rage and fear when he found out where she was. Jamie, unlike Claire, knew exactly what Black Jack was capable of. I think his treatment of her was fully justified, even if she still did not comprehend what she had done.

Chapter 22 "Reckonings"

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire?
Jamie had to administer justice in order for Claire to realize the danger she had put everyone in. If Jamie had not carried out the discipline he had threatened, she would have thought she could get around him. Claire is in a very different time than she is used to, and Jamie knew there was no other way to bring that lesson home to her. Also, the men had to know that she understood these things if they would continue to protect her. After her beating, the men took her back in.

12. At this point, what did you think was the significance of Alex MacGregor's Bible being in Jamie's possession?
I think the person who gave it to him knew why Alex died, and what had been done to Jamie. There was a bond between them.

Chapter 23 "Return to Leoch"

13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire?
Claire is finally admitting to herself that she is in love with Jamie. I don’t think I could have left. Given the choice of Frank or Jamie, Jamie would have won out.

14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for Claire?

"Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own." - Jamie to Claire after giving her his ring.
Jamie’s love is the strongest at this point. Claire is still torn between Jamie and Frank. Frank loved Claire, but it wasn’t the kind of love that he would sacrifice his life for her. Jamie had faced that very thing by going after her at Ft. William.

Part 4--Outlander

"A Whiff Of Brimstone"
Chapters 24 & 25

1. What are your impressions of the scene with Donas and Hamish?
Hamish is proving that he is a McKenzie.

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?
Jamie is handling a sensitive situation very well. He did not go into detail, but explained it so that Hamish could understand. I think it was also for Claire’s benefit, so that she could see how important her needs and desires were to Jamie, especially after recent events.

3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from?
I was sure it had to be Loaghaire.

4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham)
The same things that made him so attractive to women. He is tall and gorgeous, but very manly. Sandringham and Black Jack were none of these things.

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?
It seemed so cruel to leave the child to die. It was difficult to understand how parents could believe such things. I was relieved that that child did not have to suffer out in the cold all night.

6. What did you think of Geillis and Claire's conversation about witchcraft (note: Geillis has the Grimoire of the Comte St. Germain)?
Geillis really thinks she is a witch, but Claire is skeptical.

7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire?
Geillis at least had an idea that Claire was a time traveler and was trying to find out for sure.

8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after Claire was tricked?
I felt so sorry for Claire, but Geillis had committed murder.

9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it?
This rang true. People during this time were very superstitious and I don’t think leaders would be above using trickery to confirm and feed the fear.

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?
Father Bain was scared of anything he didn’t know, so was determined to bring Claire down. Ned Gowan rose in my opinion when he did his best to help Claire. He did not go with the official blessing of Colum, but Colum knew about it and allowed it.

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding her origins? Jamie's reactions?
How romantic!!!!! I don’t think Claire wanted to tell Jamie about herself, but after risking himself twice for her, she knew he had a right to know. Jamie took it surprisingly well. He knew all along that there was something, but I think he was somewhat relieved to find out she wasn’t a witch. He may have thought she was just babbling because of what she had just been through and was out of her mind.

12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or testing her love for him?
I don’t think either one. Jamie loved Claire more than anything, and he truly believed that she had to go back through the stones to be safe, and that was the most important thing to him. The whole time I am reading it, I am thinking, “No Claire, you can’t leave him. He loves you so much more than Frank and you love him so much more than you could ever love Frank. You will always regret leaving him.”

I think Jamie's words to Claire when she goes back to him confirm this. He told Claire he did not pray for her to stay, but for the strength to let her go and to be able to live without her. If he had told her this before he left her at the stones, I doubt she would have even considered leaving.

13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them?
No. I think Claire would have always been searching and wondering about how to get back.

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch?
Claire is actually his.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
tlshaw said:
2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?
Jamie is handling a sensitive situation very well. He did not go into detail, but explained it so that Hamish could understand. I think it was also for Claire's benefit, so that she could see how important her needs and desires were to Jamie, especially after recent events.
I think you are right about that. Jamie, of course, knew Claire was there and he kept looking up at her. His talk with Hamish was as much for Claire's benefit as the boy's. I never looked at it that way before.

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?
It seemed so cruel to leave the child to die. It was difficult to understand how parents could believe such things. I was relieved that that child did not have to suffer out in the cold all night.
Do you think Jamie might have smothered the child so that it wouldn't suffer needlessly? I think he might have done that to protect Claire, as well. Once Claire knew the child was dead, she left. Or maybe just told Claire the baby was dead to get her to leave.
 

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9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries
to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just
reckless? I still don't think she takes her situation seriously enough; that there is real danger to her in this time, and that her actions can put other people in danger, too. Also, she still can't help thinking of Randall in terms of Frank's ancestor.

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did? I think he forgives her rather too easily, considering what he and his men went through to rescue her.

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire? Well, if it were one of the men who disobeyed orders, they would have expected to be punished - but I still would have been happier if she had given him more than a bloody nose and a couple scratches in return...

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding
her origins? Jamie's reactions? Geeze, he always shows up just in time, doesn't he? It's a huge relief for her to tell someone. Even though she does not expect him to believe her, it's the first time she's been able to justify all her actions up to that point - why she hasn't talked about her past, why she hasn't taken things seriously, why she's tried to get away. As for Jamie - I think there is a difference between when someone just believes in something, vs. choosing to believe in something. At this point, he is choosing to believe her story. Finding out that it is really true is a turning point in how he sees her and treats her; afterwards; he will automatically believe her and trust her, he won't have to choose to do so.

12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or
testing her love for him? Knowing that he wasn't her first choice for a husband (regardless of how he hopes she feels now), he feels obligated to give her the opportunity to return to Frank. Plus, he understands now why she acts and thinks so differently from everyone else, and he knows that this will continue to put her in danger. From his point of view; if he talked her into staying, it would not mean as much to him as if she decided for herself to stay, without pressure from him. I think that he thought she went; that he did the right thing for her by freeing her; otherwise I don't see how he could have gone to sleep in the cabin.

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch? It was about time. Especially with what he was told about his sister, it wasn't right for him to have stayed away and out of contact for so long. He was avoiding his responsibilities.

[/quote]
 

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Chapter 21 "Un Mauvais Quart d'Heure After Another"

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries
to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just
reckless?

I think Claire is just reckless.  I don't think she truly understands the danger of the times she is living in.  I also think she has a false sense of security around Randall because he reminds her so much of Frank.  I think she sees Frank in him so much that she thinks Frank wouldn't hurt me so there is no way this guy will.

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

At times I think he did and at times I think he didn't.  I can't seem to grasp my head around the time period.  It is so imbedded in my to not let a man tell me what to do that I have a hard time reading this book at times. 

Chapter 22 "Reckonings"

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire?  That made me so mad.  I go from loving Jamie one minute to hating him the next.  Even though Claire has forgiven him by Chapter 25, I am still pretty ticked off at him.  I guess I can hold a grudge longer than her.  :)

12. At this point, what did you think was the significance of Alex MacGregor's Bible being in
Jamie's possession?

I didn't think anything of it.


Chapter 23 "Return to Leoch"

13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know
at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire? 

I would still be trying to make my way back.  Of course, I'm still mad at Jamie.


14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for
Claire?

Claire's love for Jamie.

"Seems I canna possess your soul without losing my own." - Jamie to Claire after giving her his
ring.

Part 4--Outlander

"A Whiff Of Brimstone"
Chapters 24 & 25

1. What are your impressions of the scene with Donas and Hamish? 

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?  I thought it was so funny, especially that Claire got to over hear the whole conversation from the loft.  I don't know how Jamie kept a straight face.


3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from?

Loaghaire.


4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham)

I don't know.

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?

I thought that was weird.  I would have done as Claire though and tried to get it.  I thought she would succeed in getting back to the baby though.

6. What did you think of Geillis and Claire's conversation about witchcraft (note: Geillis has the
Grimoire of the Comte St. Germain)?

I thought it was foreshadowing of what was to come.


7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire?

I thought Geillis was trying to pry information from her and I think she would have done it if they weren't interrupted.


8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after
Claire was tricked?



9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The
Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it?

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

I was surprised by Father Bain.  I wouldn't have expected him to testify against her. 

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding
her origins? Jamie's reactions?

I was surprised that Jamie was so calm and matter-of-fact about it.  I can't believe he trusted her that quickly about the truth.


12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or
testing her love for him?

I think he was being noble. 

13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them?

No way.  I think one or both of them knew she wouldn't go through it.

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch?  I was excited and wanted to keep reading to find out what would happen, but I was a good Book Club Girl and stopped where I was supposed to. 



I couldn't believe how much went on in these 5 Chapters.  Very exciting stuff.






 

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Discussion Starter #8
Heidi said:
10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

At times I think he did and at times I think he didn't. I can't seem to grasp my head around the time period. It is so imbedded in my to not let a man tell me what to do that I have a hard time reading this book at times.
That's the same problem Claire has. I don't think she would ever let Frank tell her what to do in the 20th century, so she certainly isn't going to let Jamie tell her what to do. Unfortunately, Claire doesn't have that luxury anymore. Not listening to Jamie can have life-threatening consequences. It would be the same with a soldier in the field, not listening to his commanding officer and putting the whole squad in danger.

I think Jamie is beginning to understand Claire better, and realize they have to be partners. He does that by sharing himself with her while they are walking the horses, and again in talking with Hamish in the barn.

I think Claire has begun to understand the danger since her experience in Cranesmuir. While she's not the type to ever subjugate herself to another's will, I think she's learning it's more a matter of trust and she has to give of herself as Jamie has given of himself.
 

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Gertiekindle:
I think you are right on target. Claire is used to being independent and trusting her own judgment. She is still learning that she needs to trust Jamie. This is his time and he has a much better understanding of social mores and the very real dangers that they face every day.

But then, I think one of the things that draws Jamie to Claire is her independence and uniqueness.

The night Jamie gave Claire his ring is probably the most important event in the series. Claire agrees to be Jamie's wife, and Jamie is determined to show her exactly what that means. That night was not just about sex (even though I had to stop reading and fan myself a couple of times), it was more about whose will was going to rule. Jamie and Claire were both very rough on each other that night. But the next morning, when Claire is sore and does not want any more, Jamie pulls her back into bed and shows her he is still in control, but this time does it in a much more gentle manner.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
tlshaw said:
The night Jamie gave Claire his ring is probably the most important event in the series. Claire agrees to be Jamie's wife, and Jamie is determined to show her exactly what that means. That night was not just about sex (even though I had to stop reading and fan myself a couple of times), it was more about whose will was going to rule. Jamie and Claire were both very rough on each other that night. But the next morning, when Claire is sore and does not want any more, Jamie pulls her back into bed and shows her he is still in control, but this time does it in a much more gentle manner.
Very well said. It's a powerful scene ... all of it ... and is definitely pivotal.
 

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Gee Gertie, you were right. I was getting ahead of myself. I didn't realize it then. I guess I got confused reading more than 1 novel at a time. I hadn't read ch. 25 yet.  ::)
Geille used opium on Claire. I read that. I just thought like Claire that she thought that Claire was a spy. Then, when i read that scene where Claire notices the vaccine mark on Geille's arm, my mouth dropped open. Geille, I hope I got the name right, was a time traveler like Claire & from her century.
I laughed at the sex talk scene between the cousins.
I was horrified at the so called beating. He didn't have to go at it with such gusto. Yet, like other scenes, it was the thing to do at that time period.
I always liked the lawyer & was so thankful for his help, on his own. still, that was a funny scene with her yarning. The lawyer was trying to be verbose as well as sharply shooting down the false facts that Claire was not a witch. Did not understood where he was the next day.
Figured that it was Loaghaire. I want to tell Jaime what she did & let her get whipped.
Was shocked when Claire tells J.the truth about the past. Honestly, I did not know if she was going or staying. I'm glad that she stayed & is going home with J.
Now she needs to find another girl friend, 1 that isn't a murderer.
The priest - I knew he was against Claire. I was dissapointed with him, being so stupid & superstious. Along with the baby thing, superstitions...that was a hard scene to read, along with Claire the whole witch trials scene.
I think J. is more in love with C, but C. is moving in that direction. When she is ushered in to the castle after their returning, she thinks that now she doesn't feel like as much an outsider. She's making friends with the married women, etc. She is getting more comfortable with J. & her life there. C. reaches that point when she chooses J. after leaving the rocks & not going back to Frank.
I can not believe that so much happened in last weeks reading. I'm wondering if the author planned on writing a series when she wrote this book?
 

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Forgot to mention that it was mentioned the ages of C. & J. in last weeks reading. Also, Claire has naturally curly, brown hair. I keep looking for Claire now whenever I see someone that might look like her. That is much easier than finding a guy to look like Jamie with his red hair. Do guys like Jamie exist nowadays?? Please guys, weigh in. LOL!!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Toby said:
I can not believe that so much happened in last weeks reading. I'm wondering if the author planned on writing a series when she wrote this book?
Yes, DG originally planned 5 books. I think the last one was supposed to be titled King's Men. Now we're up to six books with two more to go.

How does everyone feel about adding on a couple more chapters this week? I see that these chapters are kind of short. Part 5 is only 78 Pages. That will take us up to Chapter 34.

I'll start another thread so you all can decide.
 

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Hello, ladies. I'm sorry to have dropped out for a few weeks, but the nasty old real world demanded some attention for a while. If I may, I'd like to sneak in the answers for the first chapter now while I wait for a phone call and I'll post the rest at home this evening.

9. Claire is bold enough to mess with the things in Randall's office and taunt him when he tries
to rape her. Was this a risk or did she feel confident enough to handle Randall? Or is she just
reckless?


Well, both. I think that she was taking a significant risk and that it might be fair to call that reckless. At times she doesn't appear to fully comprehend the degree to which her more modern sensibilities put her in danger. However, her realization that Randall is a true sadist who needs her fear in order to rape her and her subsequent attempt to use that knowledge were crafty and reasonable. Same with the attempt to use what little she knew of the Duke of Sandringham.

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

Looked at in the light of the culture he lives in, I think he did. His reasons for strapping her made logical sense and did seem to improve the way the others saw her. It would have been more interesting to see what we would all think if his only reason was that he had vowed to do so if she ran away and he did so for that reason alone. In that time, one would think he certainly would have done so.

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire?

Probably. It may not have been the best plan to tell her it turned him on and it was all he could do not to ravish her immediately afterward, however.

12. At this point, what did you think was the significance of Alex MacGregor's Bible being in
Jamie's possession?


I think that they are setting up a dramatic confrontation between Randall & Jamie. A cage match to the death, as it were.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
SouthernGent said:
Hello, ladies. I'm sorry to have dropped out for a few weeks, but the nasty old real world demanded some attention for a while. If I may, I'd like to sneak in the answers for the first chapter now while I wait for a phone call and I'll post the rest at home this evening.
Welcome back.

10. After rescuing her, does Jamie treat her fairly in light of what she did?

It would have been more interesting to see what we would all think if his only reason was that he had vowed to do so if she ran away and he did so for that reason alone. In that time, one would think he certainly would have done so.
Very good question. I don't think he was worried that Claire would run away. I think he was worried she would try to follow him. Had she done so, she would probably have still put herself in danger, although maybe not from Randall. She would also probably have disrupted the meeting with Horrocks (couldn't DG have come up with a better name?) and caused mayhem just the same.

Now if Claire had just wandered off to pick some daisies and he beat her for that, yes, I I would feel differently.

11. Was it right for Jamie to beat Claire?

Probably. It may not have been the best plan to tell her it turned him on and it was all he could do not to ravish her immediately afterward, however.
Agreed; although we should give Jamie points for restraining himself. Or maybe he was thinking she might still have that dirk in her pocket.
 

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13. Claire begins to feel indecision about leaving Jamie for the stone circle. With what we know
at this point, what would you have done if you were Claire?


I'd leave in a flash. Life is so much easier today. If she's no longer enamored of Frank, she should resolve that upon her return.

14. Which love is stronger: Claire's love for Jamie, Claire's love for Frank, Or Jamie's love for
Claire?


I'd have to go with Jamie's love for Claire, since it is undiluted by a bonus spouse. Although I suppose one could assert that there might be a fair bit of lust involved as well.

1. What are your impressions of the scene with Donas and Hamish?

I immediately liked the kid. It is easy to relate to a young boy trying to find ways to test and prove himself.

2. How did you feel about Jamie's "facts-of-life" talk with Hamish?

In addition to the comic relief, it showed that Jamie is changed by Claire, just as she is changed by him.

3. Upon the first reading, who did you think the "ill-wish" that Claire found came from?

The girl Jamie took the beating for.

4. Why is Jamie so attractive to gay men? (Such as Sandringham)

I didn't really think about that. The premise in the book seems to be that he is simply attractive to one and all. I had a friend that was something like that, it just seemed like everyone loved him. He had more girlfriends than I could count, but he also had funny stories about being hit on by guys from time to time. I think a certain charisma probably translates to both men and women. I've never been hit on by any gay men and precious few women, so my insight is limited. ;)

5. How did you feel about the incident with the changeling?

It reminded me how different things are in these times. I was reminded yet again at how dangerously oblivious Claire is to the risks of her position.

6. What did you think of Geillis and Claire's conversation about witchcraft (note: Geillis has the
Grimoire of the Comte St. Germain)?


It amused me that Claire has such strong notions that witchcraft is nonsense when a chant apparently transported her back in time. That would give me cause to doubt my beliefs.

7. What did you think really happened when Geillis hypnotized Claire?

I took it at face value that she was really planning to investigate Claire's origin. Or is the question what did Geillis do? In that case, I think she drugged and hypnotized her.

8. How did you feel about Claire and Geillis being put into the theives' hole at Cranesmuir after
Claire was tricked?


I thought it was one of the better written passages thus far. Things really did seem dire for Claire.

9. What are your impressions of Claire and Geillis' witch trial? Is anyone familiar with The
Crucible by Arthur Miller? If so, did this remind you of it?


It reminded me of the Crucible only superficially, although I admit it has been ages since I read it. I did always wonder why people didn't point out the obvious flaw in the dunk test, so that part amused me.

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

I just feel sorry for the ignorance of my fellow man, which Father Bain symbolized for me. He didn't seem evil, just ignorant. Unfortunately, that sort of ignorance has done more harm than a lot of evil. I remain somewhat puzzled by Ned. I don't quite understand his motivations, since he said it was personal. I thought he did a fine job, but I also don't understand what happened to him the next day. Were his actions explained the second day? Did I just miss it?

11. What did you think about Jamie's rescue of Claire and her subsequent revelation regarding
her origins? Jamie's reactions?


The man is unrealistically saintly. I did get a chuckle when he said it would have been easier if she was a witch.

12. When Claire is taken back to the stones, what is your reaction? Was Jamie being noble or
testing her love for him?


I guess it was a bit of both. He was being noble, but he also had to hope she would choose him in the end. But the only way he can really have Claire is to give her the choice.

13. If they had parted at the stones, would their goodbye have been enough for them?

It would have shortened the book. Perhaps she'd just pop back and forth. More seriously, I do understand his reaction. Sometimes you just can't do a long tearful goodbye. You do what you can in the moment.

14. How did you feel when Jamie announced that he was taking Claire home to Lallybroch?

Not surprised. Interested to see how that would play out. I'm guessing we are going to see a lot more clan politics now.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
SouthernGent said:
10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

I just feel sorry for the ignorance of my fellow man, which Father Bain symbolized for me. He didn't seem evil, just ignorant. Unfortunately, that sort of ignorance has done more harm than a lot of evil. I remain somewhat puzzled by Ned. I don't quite understand his motivations, since he said it was personal. I thought he did a fine job, but I also don't understand what happened to him the next day. Were his actions explained the second day? Did I just miss it?
Here is my answer to that:

10. How did you feel about Father Bain and Ned Gowan at the trial?

Father Bain had to be somewhat educated in order to become a priest, but he has no broad experience of the world. He is nearly as ignorant and superstitious as his parishioners.

Ned Gowan, on the other hand, is a bold adventurer and a mighty champion. He did manage to wring some concessions from the examiners, but where was he the next day? There is no mention of Ned once it is announced that they cannot reach a decision. I'm guessing that he prudently slipped away, knowing there was nothing more he could do.
The Scots seem to be very practical, maybe even fatalistic.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Instead of reading through Chapter 30, we will be reading through Chapter 34.  It's only 78 pages.  I asked the question in another thread and the people who responded said that would be okay. 

 

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Thanks Gertie! I'm so glad that she did decide to write a series. So far, it's a great book.

* Yeah, LOL, after reading someone's comments. - I remember that scene about "the witch floating, the non-witch drowning". It's the FAT person that floats & the thin person that sinks. I've spent many years swimming, so that's just MHO.
* Crucible - My nephew had the lead role in that play, but as soon as it dragged on about the witches, I whipped out my journal & started sketching people. Needless to say, I was bored with the play, but had a great time sketching. Eckart Tolle in his book, A New Earth says something like this, that it's the male ego trying to kill off women's power. Or rather the male, felt threatened by the (female) witches power. Such is the stuff of wars,especially against women.

 

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Discussion Starter #20
Toby said:
Thanks Gertie! I'm so glad that she did decide to write a series. So far, it's a great book.
So glad you are enjoying the book. It gets even better.

A New Earth says something like this, that it's the male ego trying to kill off women's power. Or rather the male, felt threatened by the (female) witches power. Such is the stuff of wars,especially against women.
Many men were burned as witches, but the vast majority were women. I agree with what you are saying, considering that the Catholic Church at some point voted by a very narrow margin that women had souls and could be saved. If the vote had gone the other way, would women have been allowed to "sin" with impunity while men would be bound by the rules?
 
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