[Robert Stanek]

So if I bought a Big 5 book, I couldn't read it simultaneously on 6 devices?

Not necessarily. The major publishers have individually negotiated contracts, rather than the blanket contracts everyone else has. Those individually negotiated contracts govern the way works can and cannot be used and also can be tailored per author, per imprint, etc.

 

[cinisajoy]

And you know, if someone reads one of my books and dislikes it so much then want their .99 or 4.99 back, fine. It's not worth stressing over. I get a few returns, but not that many as a percentage. I want the people who buy my books to be people who read them and enjoyed them and felt good about paying what I charged. That's my audience.

If I couldn't stand your book that much, I want the Amazon verified purchase on the review.

Oh and Mr. Stanek,
I will make you a promise right now. You will never have to worry about a return from me, or me letting several others read your book free. You are welcome.
All I mean by this is that you do not write the type of books that I care to read. Therefore no worries from me. Please do not take this any other way.

 

[Guest]

Large publishers with individually negotiated contracts with Amazon can control this setting, but individuals, small publishers and anyone else unable to get a directly negotiated contract (pretty much everyone other than the major publishers) have no control over this setting.

If this is true, none of the large publishers are restricting it. I have three kindles (a regular Kindle and two Fires) and I purchase a lot of trade books. None of them are restricted to only one device. I can read them on any of my Kindles or Mike's phone via the Kindle App or either of our computers via the Kindle app.

 

[Robert Stanek]

That's a bit of an apples and oranges argument against this. To be fair, though, in some circumstances I would. I've been there and have survived it.

Nobody is saying you don't. However, there is the reality that in order to do business in certain ways and/or markets, you have to accept the terms of others. I've dealt with Amazon outside of being an author. They are very much an online version of Walmart in that they really don't negotiate. It's their terms or the highway unless you bring some serious muscle to the table. I once represented a billion dollar manufacturer at the table with them. My boss's attitude was "We're XXXXX, they need us." Guess what, they didn't. In the end it was their way.

I'm not saying you can't question. But you're not selling on your own website. You're selling on theirs.

Except that Amazon makes exceptions to the blanket rules every single day.

 

[@Suzanna]

In my "thank you for reading" section I encourage people to share my book with a friend or family member. The reality is that I've been turned on to many authors after someone shared a book with me and went on to buy other books by those authors. Similarly, I've shared books with my sisters (who are *voracious* readers) and they've gone on to purchase the entire backlist of those authors.

 

[Rick Gualtieri]

Except that Amazon makes exceptions to the blanket rules every single day.

So then try. Call them up, get your lawyers and their lawyers talking. Tell them you bring $XXX to the table and want to see if you can cut your own deal. Worst case scenario: they say no.

 

[Robert Stanek]

If this is true, none of the large publishers are restricting it. I have three kindles (a regular Kindle and two Fires) and I purchase a lot of trade books. None of them are restricted to only one device. I can read them on any of my Kindles or Mike's phone via the Kindle App or either of our computers via the Kindle app.

The restrictions usually relate to unlimited use versus limited use, or a specific preset limit, such as 6 devices simultaneously.

 

[Guest]

Well, there are solutions that would prevent a person from turning off their Wi-Fi and then fake returning an item. As an example, Amazon could simply reply with an automated message, that says turn-on the Wi-Fi on your device to complete the return.

The issue isn't the Wi-Fi being shut off. Amazon will simply pull the book the next time the Wi-Fi IS turned on. A person who is actually trying to "fake" a return will just sideload the book to their hard drive and then return it. Then they can just move it back to their device. Methinks you underestimate the ability of the genuine crooks and would make honest people suffer in the process.

I am one of the most vocal anti-pirate people on this site. But I will not adopt any policy that treats my legitimate readers like criminals in an empty effort to attack real pirates. Your restrictions won't actually DO anything to stop a real pirate and will just annoy genuine customers.

Allow me to share a little small scale insight. A few years ago, Wizards of the Coast discovered a pirated PDF copy of their 4th edition books on a torrent site. The PDF had a watermark that it had been legally purchased through RPGNow. And then the buyer had uploaded it to the torrent site. WoTC went ballistic and, in an epic hissy fit, pulled ALL of their digital products off of RPGNOW and decided to sell them directly through their own site with all sorts of DRM. What should come as NO surprise to anyone that actually pays attention is that after they did this, pirate copies of their books EXPLODED onto torrent sites. Why? First, because they had made it too difficult to buy their digital products. People were used to buying from RPGNOW, and didn't want to have to go through the hassle of buying from WoTC directly, at the same price, but getting less functionality. Second, people resented being treated like criminals because of one bad apple and decided to "get even" with WoTC by just stripping all of the DRM (which is incredibility easy to do if you follow one of the dozens of Youtube videos that offer step by step instructions!) and uploaded to the torrent sites.

Unsurprisingly, the mass pirating stopped when they started to sell on RPGNOW again. Because most people ARE honest, and if you give them easy ways to buy products and don't force burdensome restrictions, they would much rather have a legal copy than an illegal one.

 

[Just Browsing]

If I couldn't stand your book that much, I want the Amazon verified purchase on the review.

LOL. Right? I actually did have that on a series once--someone took the first one (which is perma-free), then bought the next two and returned them, and pasted the same review on all three, all with the 'verified purchase' stamp. She hated the series. I mean, she really, really didn't like it. So, OK. Should she be out $6? No, not for me. I'd rather she spent her money on books she liked. I'm sorry she didn't like the ones I published, but there you are, she's not required to. Thing is, we can't go inside her head and know what happened. Maybe she took Book 1 perma-free, saw it was a series, and figured she should buy the next two while she was in the mood or had them in front of her. Then she read one, loathed it, and returned the paid ones. Again--if my book isn't worth $3 to you, then please, return it and have your money back. The kind of readers I want, for anything I write or publish, are ones who consider the price I charge to be a good deal--or at the very least, a fair exchange.

Are there "cheaters" out there? Oh, doubtless. There are also shoplifters and people who break into your home and steal your stuff. But most people don't do that. The majority of Amazon's shoppers, at least as my sales figures show, are happy to pay for their books. People who don't wish to purchase books can use the library or borrow from friends, etc. Books that I'm giving for Christmas this year I notice are all ones I read free first somewhere, from a library or a loan from someone I know.

 

[Robert Stanek]

Interesting. I think some level of DRM can be helpful as a deterrent. Amazon DRM is fairly good, I think, at performing its purpose and you can still use the e-items you've purchased across devices.

 

[Betsy the Quilter]

Robert--just to clarify something that many new members get confused about.  This subforum is indeed the Writers' Café.  But our overall forum is for Kindle Owners, and the Writers' Café subhead is "Come in, grab a cup of coffee and chat with our authors."  Readers are welcome here.  And, being a discussion forum, they are welcome to express their opinions.  Those opinions, of course, must stay within the bounds of civil discouse.

Folks, I've removed some posts that were off topic and were hovering around the "personal attack" line, threatening to spill over.  And also some posts that responded.  If your post was removed and you have any questions, PM me.

Thanks!

Betsy
KB Moderator

 

[Robert Stanek]

Robert--just to clarify something that many new members get confused about. This subforum is indeed the Writers' Café. But our overall forum is for Kindle Owners, and the Writers' Café subhead is "Come in, grab a cup of coffee and chat with our authors." Readers are welcome here. And, being a discussion forum, they are welcome to express their opinions. Those opinions, of course, must stay within the bounds of civil discourse.

Thanks, Betsy! This discussion pertains to issues very dear to me as an author and content creator: authors' rights and fair use in the context of a discussion area called Writer's Café. I understand readers and writers participate. Authors' rights and fair use are important subjects and an author should be able to discuss them in such a context.

Great discussion everyone!

 

[CraigInOregon]

For me personally, I think it would far exceed expected fair use of a work if 10 people with 10 devices had 1 account, such that that 1 account allowed a single purchase to be available to all 10 people simultaneously on all 10 devices. You, on other hand, seem to be using the devices for testing and such, which is a different situation.

Robert,

In general, I am in favor of authors protecting their work from piracy. Completely in favor of that.

But there's a couple things where I part company with you, in terms of agreement.

1) Paying a service to send out DMCA Takedown Notices via a monthly fee. Seems to me that unless someone is assured that such a company's reputation is ironclad (say, Webroot or McAfee or Vipre or someone like that, adding a specific author-protection service), the risk is far too great that the company saying "pay us a monthly fee to kinda-sorta help you" are the same people who own the pirate sites and are trying to profit off your content to begin with.

2) Your opinion (quoted above) that 10 people on 10 devices on one account might be a personal opinion, but there's way too many X-factors you're not taking into consideration. Like the simple assumption that each device = a separate user.

Using myself as an example, my wife and I buck the general trend in that we have separate Amazon accounts. Part of the reason for this is our very different tastes in books, and also that we met later in life (late 20s for her, late 30s for me), so we both already had Amazon accounts when we got married seven-plus years ago.

But in today's tech-driven day and age, even if we DID share an account, it'd be VERY easy to reach your arbitrary target of "10 devices" being "too much."

For instance, I currently own:

1 Kindle PaperWhite
1 Google Nexus 7 tablet
1 Samsung Galaxy SIII phone
1 Asus laptop (Windows 7)
1 Dell desktop (Windows 7)

That's not counting the fact that I had a K3 before I had my PaperWhite, and had Kindle apps on at least two previous PCs that were either replaced or died. That's 8 devices, easy, five of which I actively use. And yes, I've deleted out-of-use devices in my Amazon account via Manage My Devices, but still... just little ol' me has FIVE active devices that either are Kindles or use Kindle apps.

Additionally, I've been contemplating adding a Chromebook to my lineup to reach six active devices all by myself. And I would be deeply ticked off if I had to pay again for a book I've already purchased.

And because I understand this, I never limit devices per purchase when I publish via KDP.

None of these include my wife's devices. Like me, she has several:

1 K3 Kindle reader
1 Samsung Galaxy SIII phone
1 Acer Android tablet
1 Desktop PC (Win7)
1 Old laptop PC (Win 7)
1 iPod Touch (iOS)

So she has six active devices all by herself (and hopes to upgrade her Kindle to a PW2 soon)

And we don't even have kids yet.

Two people... 11 active devices that could become 12 if I buy a Chromebook. (Because I plan to keep my old laptop until it's completely broken, not just a bit slower than it used to be.)

So, yeah... all I can say is... 10 or more devices doesn't always = 10 or more users.

(Aside bit of trivia: Affordable virus protection programs are VERY hard to find, for us, because of the amount of tech we each own. Companies think they're being oh-so-benevolent with "1 year, 3 device" pricing, but that's not always so... Same goes with MS Office. It's to the point where I have Office 2007, while my wife uses Office 2010, because we would need FOUR licenses to just own one version or copy, and Home and Student only offers three licenses per purchase.)

So, yeah... be careful with those assumptions on devices. It's pretty easy to reach 4-6 actively-used devices per user.

 

[Guest]

Thanks, Betsy! This discussion pertains to issues very dear to me as an author and content creator: authors' rights and fair use in the context of a discussion area called Writer's Café. I understand readers and writers participate. Authors' rights and fair use are important subjects and an author should be able to discuss them in such a context.

Great discussion everyone!

I think part of the pushback you are getting is that your initial post seems to come from a position that most readers are crooks looking for ways to rip-off authors. Piracy IS a problem, but I think you are actually focused on the wrong thing. My return rate on Amazon across ALL titles is less than 1%. Even if that entire 1% is comprised of people faking returns, I consider that the cost of doing business to keep the other 99% of my readers happy. If you are seeing a huge number of returns in relation to sales, I suspect there is another problem than Amazon's return policy. It is easy to assume mass returns are the result of fraud, because it allows us to blame phantoms. But what I have seen from others reporting unusually high returns generally boils down to:

Bad formatting: This happens a lot particularly with trade authors who have recently got their rights back and use some software to convert their print books to epub and don't edit the source files. You end up with jumbled messes in the conversions, and readers won't suffer it. A poorly formatted book will be returned by the truckloads. This can be prevented simply by making sure the final files are correct. But too many authors don't.

bad marketing: If someone thinks they are getting a full length story and it turns out to be a three chapter excerpt or a short story with a long excerpt of a novel attached, they get mad. If they think they are getting a sweet romance and it is actually an erotica, they will get mad. If they think they are getting a paranormal YA and it turns out to be a horror novel, they will get mad. Again, people mis-representing their work to capitalize on "hot" genres and engaging in bait and switch will often see unusually high returns. Again, this is preventable by making sure you are marketing your book correctly and hitting the right target demographics for your book instead of the perceived hottest demographics.

Poorly timed Select promotions: So you scheduled your Select Free Days for the 10th to the 15th, but forgot to announce it until the last minute and the freebie sites didn't pick it up until the last day? It isn't unusual for this to result in a lot of returns because people click the link thinking the book is free, and then discover later they were charged. Or on those occasions when Amazon screws up your free days and doesn't start them on time, and people clicking the promo links think they are getting the book for free but it isn't.

 

[cinisajoy]

Robert,

In general, I am in favor of authors protecting their work from piracy. Completely in favor of that.

But there's a couple things where I part company with you, in terms of agreement.

1) Paying a service to send out DMCA Takedown Notices via a monthly fee. Seems to me that unless someone is assured that such a company's reputation is ironclad (say, Webroot or McAfee or Vipre or someone like that, adding a specific author-protection service), the risk is far too great that the company saying "pay us a monthly fee to kinda-sorta help you" are the same people who own the pirate sites and are trying to profit off your content to begin with.

2) Your opinion (quoted above) that 10 people on 10 devices on one account might be a personal opinion, but there's way too many X-factors you're not taking into consideration. Like the simple assumption that each device = a separate user.

Using myself as an example, my wife and I buck the general trend in that we have separate Amazon accounts. Part of the reason for this is our very different tastes in books, and also that we met later in life (late 20s for her, late 30s for me), so we both already had Amazon accounts when we got married seven-plus years ago.

But in today's tech-driven day and age, even if we DID share an account, it'd be VERY easy to reach your arbitrary target of "10 devices" being "too much."

For instance, I currently own:

1 Kindle PaperWhite
1 Google Nexus 7 tablet
1 Samsung Galaxy SIII phone
1 Asus laptop (Windows 7)
1 Dell desktop (Windows 7)

That's not counting the fact that I had a K3 before I had my PaperWhite, and had Kindle apps on at least two previous PCs that were either replaced or died. That's 8 devices, easy, five of which I actively use. And yes, I've deleted out-of-use devices in my Amazon account via Manage My Devices, but still... just little ol' me has FIVE active devices that either are Kindles or use Kindle apps.

Additionally, I've been contemplating adding a Chromebook to my lineup to reach six active devices all by myself. And I would be deeply ticked off if I had to pay again for a book I've already purchased.

And because I understand this, I never limit devices per purchase when I publish via KDP.

None of these include my wife's devices. Like me, she has several:

1 K3 Kindle reader
1 Samsung Galaxy SIII phone
1 Acer Android tablet
1 Desktop PC (Win7)
1 Old laptop PC (Win 7)
1 iPod Touch (iOS)

So she has six active devices all by herself (and hopes to upgrade her Kindle to a PW2 soon)

And we don't even have kids yet.

Two people... 11 active devices that could become 12 if I buy a Chromebook. (Because I plan to keep my old laptop until it's completely broken, not just a bit slower than it used to be.)

So, yeah... all I can say is... 10 or more devices doesn't always = 10 or more users.

(Aside bit of trivia: Affordable virus protection programs are VERY hard to find, for us, because of the amount of tech we each own. Companies think they're being oh-so-benevolent with "1 year, 3 device" pricing, but that's not always so... Same goes with MS Office. It's to the point where I have Office 2007, while my wife uses Office 2010, because if we would need FOUR licenses to just own one version or copy, and Home and Student only offers three licenses per purchase.)

So, yeah... be careful with those assumptions on devices. It's pretty easy to reach 4-6 actively-used devices per user.

Craig makes a very good point. I have 5 devices myself. Strictly for my own personal use.
Oh and Craig, you are not the only husband/wife set with separate accounts. We do too. I actually read one book across 3 devices. My regular kindle for outside/fire for inside/K4PC for the pictures.
I have several that I am reading on both the fire and the kindle.

 

[Rick Gualtieri]

Craig makes a very good point. I have 5 devices myself. Strictly for my own personal use.
Oh and Craig, you are not the only husband/wife set with separate accounts. We do too. I actually read one book across 3 devices. My regular kindle for outside/fire for inside/K4PC for the pictures.
I have several that I am reading on both the fire and the kindle.

I sometimes wish we did...some of the recommendations Amazons sends to me.

But chalk another up here. In my household:
4 iphones
3 ipads
2 Kindles
1 Kindle Fire
1 Android Tablet
3 Laptops
1 Desktop

(I *think* Jeez, maybe I need a technology intervention.)

Oh and 1 Amazon account to rule them all.

 

[Sarah Ettritch]

As I've mentioned, fake returns involve a person buying e-items, turning off the Wi-Fi on their device or devices, and then returning those items. Because they've purposely turned off the Wi-Fi, the e-items they returned remain available. As a simple solution, Amazon could send an automated message/alert stating to complete the return, turn on the Wi-Fi on the device or devices.

In addition to what everyone else has already said, you're forgetting the "Transfer via USB" method. When I first got my Kindle, I didn't have Wi-Fi, so whenever I bought a book, I'd download it to my computer, connect the Kindle via USB, and move the file to the Kindle. I have Wi-Fi now, but I still use this method. In fact, since receiving the Kindle from Amazon, I've never turned on Wi-Fi. I prefer that Amazon not know what's on my Kindle, what I'm reading, and how far I got into a book. All Amazon ever knows is that I bought a book and downloaded it.

I do agree that there are some common sense methods Amazon could implement. For example, if someone buys a book from an author, returns the book, then buys another book from the same author, then returns it, etc., that's something Amazon could easily detect and purchases of books from the same author could be suspended for a time. I'm sure there are other suspicious behaviours that Amazon could catch and handle.

 

[90daysnovel]

Craig's point about devices is spot on. My 'zon account is activated for an old kindle, an old phone and and and an old laptop. I'm removing them now, but without this thread I'd never have even looked.

I think other content providers have dealt with this reasonable well - Sony with the PSN, or Netflix with tiered subs for multiple concurrent devices. They set a limit, and ask the end user to manage active devices if they want to download new stuff once they've hit the concurrency limits. I'm all for people reading stuff they bought in any way they want to. I don't use DRM for that reason. For DRM to work, it needs to be cultural rather than technological. We simply don't have strong enough DRM to stop a determined pirate. Someone needs to draw a line between what is fair to the readers, and what is fair to authors... but that line is a blurry one.

With books, readers could lend them, sell them, and give them away. With eBooks, this isn't true. They can create DRM-locked copies in specific circumstances, but it comes down to the nature of an eBook. We sell licences, not products. Some of the issues with that are pretty obvious - divisibility for one. If a couple breaks up, they can divvy up the books easily enough but only one gets the Amazon account. I personally don't mind if they both keep a copy if they buy one of my books, but the kindle licence doesn't cover that.

Inheritance is another. These are personal licences. We're all amassing digital portfolios, and very few countries have laws to deal with that.

We're in a 'make it up as you go along' system, and the people making it up are those at Amazon. Their interests in keeping customers happy, and our interests in maximising our income, don't always converge. As long as that remains the case, authors are going to have to put up with a certain level of piracy and hope that it doesn't dent the bottom line too much. By all means, play whack-a-mole with the pirate sites if it makes you feel better, but lots of these guys are based abroad, use peer-to-peer or operate on darknet sites. It's a cost benefit thing, and with huge sales it becomes much more viable to spend the time or to hire someone... but for most of us, we're best off leaving it well alone, adding a tip jar to an author website for any repentant pirates, and hoping that the extra visibility helps.

 

[Robert Stanek]

Robert,

In general, I am in favor of authors protecting their work from piracy. Completely in favor of that.

But there's a couple things where I part company with you, in terms of agreement.

1) Paying a service to send out DMCA Takedown Notices via a monthly fee. Seems to me that unless someone is assured that such a company's reputation is ironclad (say, Webroot or McAfee or Vipre or someone like that, adding a specific author-protection service), the risk is far too great that the company saying "pay us a monthly fee to kinda-sorta help you" are the same people who own the pirate sites and are trying to profit off your content to begin with.

Excellent point. I was not recommending such services per se, rather discussing such as a possible tool in the author's toolkit and letting others know my experiences with a specific service. As I mentioned, it is really up to each author to decide what is best for them regarding authors' rights and piracy.

Also, I mentioned that some piracy is part and parcel with being an author. For me personally, from time to time, I do need to track whether ongoing piracy is excessive.

2) Your opinion (quoted above) that 10 people on 10 devices on one account might be a personal opinion, but there's way too many X-factors you're not taking into consideration. Like the simple assumption that each device = a separate user.

Using myself as an example, my wife and I buck the general trend in that we have separate Amazon accounts. Part of the reason for this is our very different tastes in books, and also that we met later in life (late 20s for her, late 30s for me), so we both already had Amazon accounts when we got married seven-plus years ago.

But in today's tech-driven day and age, even if we DID share an account, it'd be VERY easy to reach your arbitrary target of "10 devices" being "too much."

Excellent points about your usage and number of devices. My thoughts really are specific to the scenarios I mentioned, and as an example: 10 devices, 10 users on 1 account all simultaneously having access to the same 1 purchase. To me, that is unfair use, if I have not expressly allowed it.

 

[Robert Stanek]

I think part of the pushback you are getting is that your initial post seems to come from a position that most readers are crooks looking for ways to rip-off authors. Piracy IS a problem, but I think you are actually focused on the wrong thing. My return rate on Amazon across ALL titles is less than 1%. Even if that entire 1% is comprised of people faking returns, I consider that the cost of doing business to keep the other 99% of my readers happy. If you are seeing a huge number of returns in relation to sales, I suspect there is another problem than Amazon's return policy. It is easy to assume mass returns are the result of fraud, because it allows us to blame phantoms. But what I have seen from others reporting unusually high returns generally boils down to:

Thanks!! I don't focus on readers in the original post, rather on the issues of authors' rights, piracy and fair use, along with providing solutions such as DMCA notices and services available. The fact is I'm a reader, from a family of readers, and with a family of readers.

I respect fair use so much that we all make our own separate purchases on our own separate devices. In fact, when I read on my iPad, I buy on my iPad and if I read the same book on another device, I buy on that device. That's my personal choice. For me, personally, that is the spirit of fair use and is simply what's right.

Regarding the simple solutions discussed, I do hope these are things Amazon looks at. I believe simple protections like these should be implemented. Just as anyone who creates or builds or does anything expects simple, basic rules and protections, authors should expect these very basic protections as well and I'd hope that readers would want these protections for authors as well.