[Sebastian Frost]

I almost quoted the exact same line as Jolie. To start out your thesis statement, Lumm, with agreeing your statements are opinion, followed by condescending overtures like "won't go away by wishing" are difficult to understand.

At the end of the day, it's obvious that there are two camps of people. One side believes you MUST have a long word count to be considered a "novel." The other does not.

They are all books, or stories, if you will. The smart thing to do is to charge as much as you can for the product you have created. How long the book is, how many drafts it took to write it, what price you charge, are all things that can be debated until the cows come home, but the truth is you have to do what works for you.

This is not the right thread for this, but I'm going to say it anyway: The reason we are seeing so many regulars disappear and the overall tone of this board turning negative is because of this "X MUST be this way" -- there's no discussion, no debate, simply a popular stance parroted again and again.

Look at the very thread we are posting in. All the original poster wanted to ask was if the zombie market is oversaturated. And from there the thread has turned into telling him to make the book longer, what to charge for it, so on and so forth.

No matter what anyone says, there's more than one path to success. We would be wise to appreciate that.

 

[Guest]

This is not the right thread for this, but I'm going to say it anyway: The reason we are seeing so many regulars disappear and the overall tone of this board turning negative is because of this "X MUST be this way" -- there's no discussion, no debate, simply a popular stance parroted again and again.

Newbies disappear, too. I got active with KBoards in January of this year. I'm gathering all the information I can. However, after I start indie publishing in June, I hope I still feel the desire to stick with KBoards. I'd like to support newbies after I become an oldie. We'll see. But if all I'm doing is arguing, then no.

No matter what anyone says, there's more than one path to success. We would be wise to appreciate that.

Thank you.

 

[Lummox JR]

I almost quoted the exact same line as Jolie. To start out your thesis statement, Lumm, with agreeing your statements are opinion, followed by condescending overtures like "won't go away by wishing" are difficult to understand.

I didn't mean that to sound condescending at all, so my apologies for that. I simply meant that I think shorter fiction authors and readers are projecting their own preferences onto readership at large a little too much, and that can lead to some breakdowns in communication. Maybe I'm doing that too, but I've seen ample evidence to suggest that when authors don't clarify that their works are shorter than normal for the genre, there have been reader complaints. There's no true standard, but there does seem to be at least a major consensus in many genres. The fact that that consensus was created by the industry and that it's now crumbling--I think that's a good thing!--doesn't get rid of it, and that's what I mean to say. Saying that so-and-so defines a novel this way is less relevant than what the readers expect. So for best results, we need to be up front with readers when we write too far outside of that "norm".

Second, I've read MANY paranormal romance stories, for EXAMPLE, that are considered NOVELS and that are BELOW your 90K to 100K range. Readers love these NOVELS, and they are NOT complaining about the word count. THEY WANT MORE OF THE SAME.

I don't disagree with you about any of that. Romance and mystery tend towards shorter lengths; that's normal for those genres. Sci-fi is a different animal. Like I said, I think there's lots of room for writers to write shorter works and there are lots of readers who adore that length--even in sci-fi and fantasy where books trend longer. The point is, books do trend longer there, so whenever any of us write work that falls outside of that trend we should give readers a heads up. Those who want long fiction won't be disappointed by reading something short, and those who want shorter fiction will be delighted to find just what they were looking for.

 

[Sebastian Frost]

Jolie,

You are absolutely correct about newbies. Technically, I am a newbie to this forum, but I've been a lurker for two years. There are a few pieces of information that I believe would be valuable to contribute, however, after seeing the treatment of those who post ideas that go against information what is considered conventional wisdom on these boards, I have no wish to share and be ridiculed.

Lumm, I accept your apology and thank you for clearing up the miscommunication. You are correct, the page numbers were inflated, but so are the prices. Here's my thought, and again it's only my thought, as I'm trying to practice what I preach. In my opinion, and it's only that, an opinion, typing the amount of words in your story calls attention to them, and makes their own expectations. If we simply publish the story, toss it into the categories that it is appropriate for, and then charge what seems to be an appropriate price, people will either accept it and buy it, or they will ignore it. In fact, I will go as far as to say that I believe 50-60k will be the amount most books settle at. That's around the area where you can say everything you want, at a relatively reasonable price, but it's also small enough to give people a decent story and then let them move on to the next chapter of your story or someone else's.

JT and lurkers, If you're still reading this thread, please know the only reason that I even entered this thread is because I believe you were being given information that worked for some people, but not everyone. Do things your own way. Try things. And honestly, if I'm wrong, if they are wrong, it's no big deal. You can write another book and do it again a different way. But read EVERYTHING, from multiple sites. There is no bible for success, if there was, everyone would follow it and everyone would be rich.

 

[Lummox JR]

Here's my thought, and again it's only my thought, as I'm trying to practice what I preach. In my opinion, and it's only that, an opinion, typing the amount of words in your story calls attention to them, and makes their own expectations. If we simply publish the story, toss it into the categories that it is appropriate for, and then charge what seems to be an appropriate price, people will either accept it and buy it, or they will ignore it. In fact, I will go as far as to say that I believe 50-60k will be the amount most books settle at. That's around the area where you can say everything you want, at a relatively reasonable price, but it's also small enough to give people a decent story and then let them move on to the next chapter of your story or someone else's.

I can appreciate the sentiment behind that, but as a reader I do care if there's going to be enough story for me; as I prefer longer works, I'll tend to avoid anything that's too short for me unless it comes highly recommended. If the book doesn't advertise its word count, all I have to go on is the Amazon page count estimate; I believe (though no one is certain of the algorithm) that can get inflated by frequent page breaks as in short chapters, and short paragraphs such as dialogue. I'm not sure if I'd leave a negative or lower review if the book was too short, but we know from past threads there are readers who will--sometimes even when they ought to know better because the blurb tells them up front. Likewise I think anyone who's looking for shorter works might be put off by an inflated page count when the word count, if they could see it, happens to be right where they want it. Consumers like to be informed, so I think it's always a good idea to include the approximate word count. I also think, as I tend to feel this way when I see it, there's a certain amount of goodwill gained by giving them that kind of information.

Respectfully, in sci-fi and fantasy I don't think it's safe to say 50-60K is where most books will settle. (In mystery or romance, though, it's a different story.) Most of those genres' readers are just used to longer work there. However I do think there are many readers who'd love books at that length; writers who prefer it will hook more of those readers with the promise up front of a quick read.

I quite agree with you that the prices as well as the word counts have gotten inflated. That said, everyone has vastly different ideas about what's an appropriate price per length, so I don't think that's something readers can count on as a clue. It depends a lot on the genre and who the target readers are.

 

[mariehallwrites]

I'm gonna tell you what, I love zombies!   And I know I'm not the only one, write it cause I'll likely buy it. My kindle is pretty much full of blood and mayhem.  

In fact, I keep waiting for a certain zombie book to go on sale…. *ahem… I'm looking at you Jolie*

 

[Guest]

I don't disagree with you about any of that. Romance and mystery tend towards shorter lengths; that's normal for those genres. Sci-fi is a different animal. Like I said, I think there's lots of room for writers to write shorter works and there are lots of readers who adore that length--even in sci-fi and fantasy where books trend longer. The point is, books do trend longer there, so whenever any of us write work that falls outside of that trend we should give readers a heads up. Those who want long fiction won't be disappointed by reading something short, and those who want shorter fiction will be delighted to find just what they were looking for.

Agreed.

 

[Guest]

I'm gonna tell you what, I love zombies! And I know I'm not the only one, write it cause I'll likely buy it. My kindle is pretty much full of blood and mayhem.

In fact, I keep waiting for a certain zombie book to go on sale…. *ahem… I'm looking at you Jolie*

Thanks so much!

The first book will be published in June 2014!

 

[Sebastian Frost]

I can appreciate the sentiment behind that, but as a reader I do care if there's going to be enough story for me; as I prefer longer works, I'll tend to avoid anything that's too short for me unless it comes highly recommended. If the book doesn't advertise its word count, all I have to go on is the Amazon page count estimate

This is very true. And I think it has to do with my Internet marketing background. See, there's a psychological trick, you can be up front about the page count while not pointing to it directly. But if you call attention to the word count, you're bringing it into people's minds, and that is off-putting. My theory is always if people truly mind the book only being 200 pages, instead of 300, they won't to buy the book.

Another great point is genre. I do completely agree that if you are writing fantasy, it's going to have to be longer. I'm not sure about sci-fi, never really done it myself, and I don't want to speak to what I don't have experience in, but I wouldn't think it would be that far off of action-adventure/thriller/superhero, which I've not had any personal experience with negative reviews for the length of books.

Again it's another one of those your mileage may vary.

I think it might be interesting to do some sort of split testing on advertising the length of the book. Another reason I don't do it, is because traditional publishers don't do it. And that is just something I learned from watching the bestsellers is to try to make your book look as close to traditionally published as possible.

I just can't imagine Dan Brown advertising his word count. lol

 

[SawyerPentecost]

JT and lurkers, If you're still reading this thread, please know the only reason that I even entered this thread is because I believe you were being given information that worked for some people, but not everyone. Do things your own way. Try things. And honestly, if I'm wrong, if they are wrong, it's no big deal. You can write another book and do it again a different way. But read EVERYTHING, from multiple sites. There is no bible for success, if there was, everyone would follow it and everyone would be rich.

Much appreciated, Sebastian!

 

[Lummox JR]

I think it might be interesting to do some sort of split testing on advertising the length of the book. Another reason I don't do it, is because traditional publishers don't do it. And that is just something I learned from watching the bestsellers is to try to make your book look as close to traditionally published as possible.

I just can't imagine Dan Brown advertising his word count. lol

An excellent point. I think, though, that traditional publishers don't do it because they've never had to. They're latecomers to the e-book phenomenon anyway, and also it must be stressed that they work within the norms that they themselves have promulgated. If you buy a trad-pub sci-fi written in the last decade, you can reasonably expect something in the 100K neighborhood or above, because that's the neighborhood of what they accept. Older sci-fi prior to inflation will tend to have lower word counts, which fans of the genre know well. Harlequin romance readers expect something much shorter, and mystery fans are often pretty happy with stuff that doesn't get past 60K.

We indies are in a different boat. Readers can't assume our books conform, and it's nice that we have the freedom not to--likewise that readers who don't want to conform themselves, can find authors who write to their preferred length. But just because they can't assume anything doesn't mean they don't, and that's where it's possible to run into trouble if we're not clear.

 

[SawyerPentecost]

*Resists his urge to push out 15k episodes of a sci fi serial with tacked on er0tic@ scenes to get it into a category that is more friendly towards lower word counts at $2.99.

Truth is, most of my internal struggles would disappear if Amazon went to 50% on everything.

 

[Sebastian Frost]

We indies are in a different boat. Readers can't assume our books conform

I think this is where your thought process, probably Jack, and most people who think along the same lines, diverge away from my line of thinking. I don't see us as that much of the different boat. For example, my debut novel did 8x better than JK Rowling's pen name before the leak. That's not a made up statistic, actually monitored the numbers she reported before her name was discovered. Am I a better writer? Hell no. But I do think we put too much value on traditional publishing, even as indies.

We should all make our products look as professional as possible, and if we do our jobs correctly, people shouldn't be able to tell the difference between our books and traditionally published author books.

*Resists his urge to push out 15k episodes of a sci fi serial with tacked on er0tic@ scenes to get it into a category that is more friendly towards lower word counts at $2.99.

Truth is, most of my internal struggles would disappear if Amazon went to 50% on everything.

Honestly, JT, a lot of authors are having some very good success with serial novels. It's risky, not many readers enjoy purchasing segments of a book, or episodes as it were, and you might get a lot of one-stars. BUT go ask KMathew or the author of yesterday's gone if they regret making serials with their six digit per year incomes comes

 

[redacted]

I think this is where your thought process, probably Jack, and most people who think along the same lines, diverge away from my line of thinking. I don't see us as that much of the different boat. For example, my debut novel did 8x better than JK Rowling's pen name before the leak. That's not a made up statistic, actually monitored the numbers she reported before her name was discovered. Am I a better writer? Hell no. But I do think we put too much value on traditional publishing, even as indies.

 

[Sebastian Frost]

Look, Mom, I can predict the future!

I have no wish to share and be ridiculed.

 

[redacted]

Look, Mom, I can predict the future!

Humblebragging about beating Rowling, then quoting yourself. Dude, you're too much.

 

[TimWLong]

I hope this genre never implodes because I love writing in it.

You will find readers that are put off by a low word count, but that can't be helped. A lot of readers equate page count to value and won't spend 3 bucks on a 100 page book. Personally, I judge a book by it's writing and not how many times I'll hit the next page button.

As many other's have pointed out, as long as the genre stays fresh, writers keep expanding and experimenting, there will be a large and ravenous audience. Okay, back to polishing off my new Z book.  

 

[Sebastian Frost]

Humblebragging about beating Rowling, then quoting yourself. Dude, you're too much.

Many authors beat her pen name, many. It had little to no publicity, the same hurdle most of us go through. But instead of contributing to the conversation, adding advice or even saying "Cool. What was your marketing strategy?" or anything else positive, you make a snarky picture meme.

As many other's have pointed out, as long as the genre stays fresh, writers keep expanding and experimenting, there will be a large and ravenous audience.

You're right on the money, Tim. Keep writing and keep making content.

 

[redacted]

Many authors beat her pen name, many. It had little to no publicity, the same hurdle most of us go through. But instead of contributing to the conversation, adding advice or even saying "Cool. What was your marketing strategy?" or anything else positive, you make a snarky picture meme.

Heh, you read way too much into it. I just posted that in good fun. But no worries. Carry on, sir.

 

[dkgould]

I hope this genre never implodes because I love writing in it.

It won't because there are ridiculous people like myself out there who are seriously addicted. Good zombie books, bad zombie books, silly zombie books, tired-same-old zombie books, I've read em all and will continue to read them as long as there are more out there to read (in addition to everything else, but zombies win out over almost everything for me )