Everything's not racist.RayBright said:When everything's racist--nothing's racist. Don't write to please anyone other than yourself. The outrage mob doesn't read.
If the people the writer is portraying use that language, then the writer can, in fact, should, reflect it.Herefortheride said:Yes, Leesa. You are correct. The same crowd will complain of "cancel culture" if the market rejects their poorly thought out plan.
Actually, Al, I have a slight amendment to make to my earlier comment.TromboneAl said:In my latest book, I have one line that has a Chinese accent. Here it is:
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My narrator warned me that I might get some bad reviews from people who think it sounds racist (that's why I added the line talking about it sounding racist).
I understand what he means, but I'm wondering why that's true for Asian accents but not for others (Southern, Swedish, German, Italian, French, etc.)."
What do you think?
It's not even that.D.E.M. said:The character isn't speaking in a "Chinese accent." It's a caricature of a Chinese accent.
I don't think you understand the conversation. Maybe read the thread before going off on [politics].D.E.M. said:If the people the writer is portraying use that language, then the writer can, in fact, should, reflect it.
This has nothing to do with "cancel culture." It's about truthful writing. Of course, no one forces the public to buy one's book, and if it isn't selling, them's the breaks.
Again, and this seems to have been lost in the fray: as long as the writer doesn't endorse the racism.
I wonder what some of the people here would make of Philip Roth's older Jewish characters (his parents especially) who say lots of stuff about "the goyim"? It's a very offensive word and indicates contempt. Also, there's a section in Portnoy's Complaint where Portnoy's mother is shown being racist towards their maid.
Roth was just writing the truth. And the truth hurts.
What is the point of writing PC pablum?
Ditto. I've repeatedly stated what the OP has written shouldn't necessarily be removed/altered. It depends on what he's after, and if this portion achieves what he's after.Herefortheride said:I don't think you understand the conversation.
I think I understand it just fine.Herefortheride said:I don't think you understand the conversation. Maybe read the thread before going off on [politics].
Edited at the brackets. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca
Well Al, I think you got your answer. A lot of people will find it racist, so if your intent is to appeal to the widest possible audience, take it out. There are a lot of over sensitive people who will take offense at literally anything. That's the world we live in.TromboneAl said:In my latest book, I have one line that has a Chinese accent. Here it is:
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My narrator warned me that I might get some bad reviews from people who think it sounds racist (that's why I added the line talking about it sounding racist).
I understand what he means, but I'm wondering why that's true for Asian accents but not for others (Southern, Swedish, German, Italian, French, etc.).
What do you think?
Excuse me, I did read the conversation and thought it was hijacked by people who were not responding to the OP.Herefortheride said:I don't think you understand the conversation. Maybe read the thread before going off on [politics].
Edited at the brackets. Drop me a PM if you have any questions. - Becca
Oh, the "write with no fear crowd" - would that be me? Because I was the one who advised OP to "write with no fear"?Lessa said:Agreed. It had nothing to do with Mark Twain and Charles Dickens writing with "no fear" regarding what "PC can get in a twist about". The suggestion otherwise simply shows ignorance of the time.
I'll also repeat, the quote in question in the OP isn't an accent. It's not even an attempt at an accent, beyond telling us the speaker is using an accent. Accents are about pronunciation.
I'm not in the automatic remove it group, because characters can of course be written to say and do all sorts of cringy things. It depends on the intention here. If it's humor, it fails IMO.
I'm also laughing a bit at the "write with no fear" crowd, wondering if they're also the sort who would go on to whine if their books don't sell and/or attract slews of poor reviews. IMO authors who simply want to write whatever they please, for their own pleasure, with no regard whatsoever with readers or reader expectations, probably shouldn't be trying to sell their writings to the general public as a consumer item. Doing so while having the expectation consumers will buy and enjoy it is...a bit naive.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about.Herefortheride said:This! Just because someone's work was full of "normal" racist phrases and language from the time doesn't mean you should be using that during a totally different time. I cringe reading the way Twain wrote about black people. It wasn't a style it was just the racism of the day.
There's so much wrong with this statement; I don't even know where to begin. Read up on Twain a little, esp. Huck Finn.Herefortheride said:I cringe reading the way Twain wrote about black people. It wasn't a style it was just the racism of the day.
Twain was actually pretty liberal for his time, a supporter of rights for both women and blacks, and a lot of his writing is satirical. Huck Finn has also been controversial for numerous reasons ranging from atheism and anti-southern attitudes to the coarse language and portrayal of black characters since it was published, so it's nothing new. It's a complex work that was meant to offend and criticize as well as a product of its time. I don't think OP is intending to write something like that though and is probably more concerned about commercial appeal.baldricko said:Just to add to what D.E.M. posts above, Mark Twain and Charles Dickens to name just two authors of classics still held in school libraries (containing plenty of dialogue PC can get in a twist about these days) showed no fear, so why should you?
That they did, and in some parts of the country, still do. And it wasn't just African-Americans that did it during the time period. The accent and methods of speech were also found among the poor white populations, indicative of a wide spread, pervasive lack of education without respect to race. You want to hear the accent for yourself? Go visit the Appalachians. People really should study history more instead of jumping on the revisionist bandwagon.D.E.M. said:You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Twain was reproducing the African-American dialect he heard. Yes, it existed. Read Charles Chestnutt, an African-American author, and any of the African-American authors of the 19th-early 20th century. They did it too. There are African-American speech patterns of today. I had a black boss who used the pronunciation "ax" for "ask." If I wrote about him in a book, I'd use that pronunciation.
Cringe away.
This!RayBright said:When everything's racist--nothing's racist. Don't write to please anyone other than yourself. The outrage mob doesn't read.
No, I am perhaps more well read of that period of time then most (specialist scholars aside). As one post already states above, Mark Twain wrote satire. The books are kids stories only on the surface. They are much deeper than that.Lessa said:Agreed. It had nothing to do with Mark Twain and Charles Dickens writing with "no fear" regarding what "PC can get in a twist about". The suggestion otherwise simply shows ignorance of the time.