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The title is certainly unambiguous enough...enter at your own risk.

Now, everyone, just remember the other parts of Harvey's guidelines including respect for others' opinions and no name calling.  No blood....

;D

Betsy

 
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Betsy the Quilter said:
The title is certainly unambiguous enough...enter at your own risk.

Now, everyone, just remember the other parts of Harvey's guidelines including respect for others' opinions and no name calling. No blood....

;D

Betsy
*rips Betsy's damned turkey-wattle throat out with his bare teeth*
 
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This bears reposting here.  I posted it originally in the "Politics and Religion" thread:

I'd be perfectly proud to see the comments I made on the front page of the Wall Street Journal.  I do not regret them one iota.

As I said many, many times (including in this thread before I deleted it) I greatly respect the service of our men and women in uniform.  But any time Country A invades Country B to force its own form of government and societal mores on the unwilling people of Country B, it is wrong to kid ourselves and think that this represents "freedom."  It doesn't matter of the soldiers of Country A are wearing German grey or American OD--it amounts to the same thing.  It isn't any more "just" just because we're the ones doing it this time.  As I also have said repeatedly, the soldiers aren't at fault--they are doing their best to do what is asked of them.  The fault lies with the policy-makers who can't see that they have turned America into everything the soldiers who fought in the two World Wars were trying to prevent.

I'm sorry that people were hurt and offended.  I'm sorry that they can't see the difference between my deep respect for American GI's and my disgust for the men in power who are getting them killed for what I consider immoral (or maybe amoral) reasons.  But I am not sorry for anything I said--merely that I said it in an inappropriate place.

LR can (and maybe will) attest to how deep my patriotism runs.  But part of being a patriot is to be ever vigilant and question your government when it goes astray.  Ours has.  And yes, to blindly agree with what we're doing in Iraq is every bit as bad as what happened amongst the German populace when Hitler invaded Poland.
 
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Just sending a shout out to Sandpiper for her kind PM. ;)
 

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Bacardi Jim said:
This bears reposting here. I posted it originally in the "Politics and Religion" thread:

I'd be perfectly proud to see the comments I made on the front page of the Wall Street Journal. I do not regret them one iota.

As I said many, many times (including in this thread before I deleted it) I greatly respect the service of our men and women in uniform. But any time Country A invades Country B to force its own form of government and societal mores on the unwilling people of Country B, it is wrong to kid ourselves and think that this represents "freedom." It doesn't matter of the soldiers of Country A are wearing German grey or American OD--it amounts to the same thing. It isn't any more "just" just because we're the ones doing it this time. As I also have said repeatedly, the soldiers aren't at fault--they are doing their best to do what is asked of them. The fault lies with the policy-makers who can't see that they have turned America into everything the soldiers who fought in the two World Wars were trying to prevent.

I'm sorry that people were hurt and offended. I'm sorry that they can't see the difference between my deep respect for American GI's and my disgust for the men in power who are getting them killed for what I consider immoral (or maybe amoral) reasons. But I am not sorry for anything I said--merely that I said it in an inappropriate place.

LR can (and maybe will) attest to how deep my patriotism runs. But part of being a patriot is to be ever vigilant and question your government when it goes astray. Ours has. And yes, to blindly agree with what we're doing in Iraq is every bit as bad as what happened amongst the German populace when Hitler invaded Poland.
Very well expressed... and I do not see how anyone can find that offensive. It is obvious, to me anyway, that you have a deep respexct for those who serve, you just have issues with the higher ups that tell them where and how to serve.

I donlt remeber the exact quote - but one of the founding fathers said something like, "Questioning the government is the higest form of patriotism"...
 
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Thank you, TM. :)  Believe it or not, at least one (and possibly more) person has left Kindleboards because of my expressing the view that the soldiers in Iraq aren't fighting for anyone's "freedom," and that those who think they are have an entirely different definition of the word "freedom" than I do.  To my mind, democracy forced on people at gunpoint isn't "freedom."  It's just the opposite--"tyranny" dressed up in a pretty box.

Apparently, this view offends some people.  I can't help that.  And I won't apologize for it.
 

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Bacardi Jim said:
Thank you, TM. :) Believe it or not, at least one (and possibly more) person has left Kindleboards because of my expressing the view that the soldiers in Iraq aren't fighting for anyone's "freedom," and that those who think they are have an entirely different definition of the word "freedom" than I do. To my mind, democracy forced on people at gunpoint isn't "freedom." It's just the opposite--"tyranny" dressed up in a pretty box.

Apparently, this view offends some people. I can't help that. And I won't apologize for it.
I am sad to hear that some have left the boards becuse of you exprressing your views... especially cine you have, at least in my reading of your posts, been very respectful in expressing them. You have made it clear that you do greatly resopect those who serve - that it is the mission and those in power you have issues with. I see nothing wrong wioth that, nor do i see how anyone else could have an issue (agree or disagree with your views, you have been very respectful and thoughtful when stating them).

Part of freedom is allowing all the voices, even those one disagrees with - especially those disgaree with. The voice of discent is very, very important... Respectful, decent conversations between opposing viewpoints/thoughts lead to better understanding on both sides.
 

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TM said:
I am sad to hear that some have left the boards becuse of you exprressing your views... especially cine you have, at least in my reading of your posts, been very respectful in expressing them. You have made it clear that you do greatly resopect those who serve - that it is the mission and those in power you have issues with. I see nothing wrong wioth that, nor do i see how anyone else could have an issue (agree or disagree with your views, you have been very respectful and thoughtful when stating them).

Part of freedom is allowing all the voices, even those one disagrees with - especially those disgaree with. The voice of discent is very, very important... Respectful, decent conversations between opposing viewpoints/thoughts lead to better understanding on both sides.
Bacardi Jim said:
Sailor: One more time--THEY ARE NOT RISKING THEIR LIVES FOR THE "FREEDOM" OF OTHERS!!!!! Just the opposite--They are risking their lives to force our way of doing things on a people who don't want or need it. They are, in fact, risking their lives to SUBJUGATE others to the "American" way of thinking.

If I have to thank them, then I also have to thank the Nazi soldiers on the line for doing exactly the same thing.
Jim, I find your comment offensive.

Bacardi Jim said:
There's a first. ::)
 
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Jeff: It seems that your real problem is with my using the word "Nazi." I could have easily substituted the word "Stalinist" or "Viet Cong" and it would all amount to the same thing. All are examples of Country A trying to force its form of government and way of thinking on Country B. In that respect, our soldiers in Iraq are no different from any of those others. And I don't blame the soldiers--any of them, past or present. They are just following the orders and policies dictated to them by their respective policy-makers.

You seem to also fail to grasp how deeply offended I was at being repeatedly told I should "thank" the soldiers in Iraq for "fighting for other people's freedom." I'm sorry if I hadn't made that clear.

As to my "There's a first" comment, it was merely a reference to the fact that you seem to get offended by every third post I make. I thought that was clear.
 

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Jim,

Bacardi Jim said:
As to my "There's a first" comment, it was merely a reference to the fact that you seem to get offended by every third post I make. I thought that was clear.
I have no idea why you'd think that I get offended by every third post you make. Perhaps I have teased you too may times. If so I apologize.

Bacardi Jim said:
You seem to also fail to grasp how deeply offended I was at being repeatedly told I should "thank" the soldiers in Iraq for "fighting for other people's freedom."
Why you said what you said has nothing whatsoever to do with that fact that I was offended. In my opinion, to call someone a Nazi is an insult and a slur.

When I was about twenty, I was stationed on the West German - Czechoslovakian border with the 11th Armored Cavalry. At one point, early in my deployment, the unit sent me to the University of Munich. While there, I rented a car and drove to Dachau. My father's unit during WW-II was involved with the camp's liberation and I wanted to tell him I'd been there.


Out of respect for Harvey's wishes that we protect young children who view this board I will not detail what I saw but anyone interested can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp

This was the work of Nazis.
 
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Jeff: Re-read my "Nazi" post. You have quoted it many times--have you actually read it? Did I call American soldiers Nazis? No. I said that our soldiers in Iraq are doing exactly the same thing the German soldiers on the line were doing--waging a war of subjugation on behalf of their amoral/immoral leaders.

I'm sorry if that word is such a hot button for you that you can't see past it to grasp the meaning of what I was saying.

Can we drop it now? Or perhaps you should consider going to your settings and putting me on Ignore? I'd hate to see that, but it would be better than ruining the board with petty bickering.
 

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I wasn't going to post as I am a very new member and not familiar with a lot of posters here as some seem to be. I was initially going to pm Bacardi Jim with my support. I changed my mind and will post instead.

I understood exactly what BJ meant with his comment. Let me also mention that I am from Germany, grew up next to a concentration camp and my grandfather was in that war. I am well versed on what the Nazi's did as we had it drilled in us from the moment we could walk. I see BJ's point. He never called anyone a Nazi.

I to find it difficult to find justifications with this war. One can support the troops but not support the war. My grandfather too did was he was told by the government. Thats what soldiers do. Not to support a war does not equal dissing the soldiers. Those insinuations I have always found very insulting. I don't believe they are fighting for our or my freedom in Iraq. I care for their safety and feel they are caught in a big mess.
 
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Thank you, Atunah. :) A shame that some people are so blinded by my use of that word that they can't or won't even attempt to be reasonable or consider my point of view.

And I want to take this opportunity to thank the many people who did PM me. I can certainly understand, given the behavior of some posters, why they prefer not to say anything publicly. :)
 

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I don't think we are going to see a reconciliation arising in this thread, and think that locking this is the best way to prevent discord. Thanks for understanding.
Thread locked.

- Harvey
 
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