[Nihilist]

Quickie search today in Erotica pulled up over 1100 books of daddy daughter taboo. So why are they banning some and not others.

That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.

But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*

 

[daringnovelist]

Ugh. I did some digging. No, you're NOT allowed to use the Send to Kindle feature as a form of distribution.

Link to TOU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201124320

I more annoyed by that Amazon rep that said it was OK in the first place.

Sorry, guys, for the misinformation.

However, if the customers buy a mobi file from you, THEY can send it to their own Kindle via email. (Note, for some reason I thought we couldn't send mobi files, only .doc and .azw. Must do some testing....)

Again, I'm not blaming indies. I think it is the way Amazon has KDP set up that adult titles can't be properly categorized to begin with. I think it is an issue with the way Amazon processes metadata on indie books.

Yeah, the problem is that WE can't resolve the problem. Amazon certainly can, but their agenda is different. (And I suspect, that whatever solution they're using, it isn't that they are actually being half-assed about it, but rather that they are, as usual, trotting it out in phases and doing it at their own geologic pace.

And all of this is related to how they deal with categories, which they started changing a while ago.

Also, I actually think that, before the adult dungeon, the fact that indies show up in search when they shouldn't has probably given an advantage to indie erotica writers. That's going to go away (just as "free" got separated from paid in best sellers). But in the end, Amazon still does want customers to find what they want. They just don't want them to have to deal with too much that they seriously don't want.

Camille

 

[CoraBuhlert]

I'm working on a set of stories under a pen name, but I haven't submitted them yet. I have the dumb of the dumbest questions. In you folk's experience with Amazon, where is the line drawn between erotica and romance? I've read some of both, and many times the line between the two seems very blurred.

The one I am close to submitting I have saved in my book shelf, but I've labeled it as romantic-erotica and erotica. Should I be safe if I label the content outright and keep my keywords accurate in what is in the book? I'd rather not hit submit button until I'm sure.

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask this in, but reading through the posts it seems most of the folks who could answer me follow this one.

Thanks!

It's erotic romance, if the focus is on the relationship of the couple (or trio in case of menage stories) and if the central couple (or trio) lives happily in a committed relationship at the end, i.e. there is a happily ever after (HEA) or happy for now (HFN) end.

If the focus is simply on sex and the characters go their separate ways at the end, then it's erotica.

 

[LBrent]

Ugh. I did some digging. No, you're NOT allowed to use the Send to Kindle feature as a form of distribution.

Link to TOU: http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201124320

I more annoyed by that Amazon rep that said it was OK in the first place.

Sorry, guys, for the misinformation.

Which takes me back to my original point, Send to Kindle can't be used for direct distribution, but if an ebook in the Kindle file type is sold on an author's private website then the buyer downloads to their computer and sends the file to Kindle it's not the same as direct distribution. The file is being sent to Kindle from the buyer's computer just like any other document can be sent. AZon has no control over this. No?

 

[CoraBuhlert]

As I already said, in over ten years as an Amazon customer, I have never accidentally stumbled across a sex toy while looking for something else. Never. And I spends thousands of dollars a year on Amazon. I have, however, accidentally stumbled across erotica while looking for books in other genres. And in those cases, it has always been indie books, not trade books, that this has happened with.

I have stumbled over sex toys on Amazon. A couple of years ago, I was looking at some Ellora's Cave (pioneering e-publisher of erotic romance) titles on Amazon. I didn't even buy the books, I was merely looking at them. The next time I opened Amazon, I was greeted by an array of dildos and sex toys on the start page with a "Based on your browsing history, we think you might be interested in these products" message. Now I was at home, so the whole situation wasn't embarrassing. Nonetheless, the fact that I look at and perhaps even buy erotic romance does not mean that I automatically want dildos.

Mind you, this was Amazon Germany, which is less prudish about such things. And it has never happened again, in spite of looking at and occasionally even buying erotic romance or outright erotica.

However, I have repeatedly stumbled over what was obviously erotica, while searching for something else. I don't mind, but it does happen. Two of my non-erotica books have erotica also-boughts and are in the also-boughts of explicit erotica. Again, I don't mind and even welcome it, since both titles get a bunch of sales from people who assume they are erotica (and the occasional "Where is the sex?" review), even both are no more explicit than a 1970s bodiceripper.

 

[MsTee]

However, if the customers buy a mobi file from you, THEY can send it to their own Kindle via email. (Note, for some reason I thought we couldn't send mobi files, only .doc and .azw. Must do some testing....)

Yeah, the problem is that WE can't resolve the problem. Amazon certainly can, but their agenda is different. (And I suspect, that whatever solution they're using, it isn't that they are actually being half-assed about it, but rather that they are, as usual, trotting it out in phases and doing it at their own geologic pace.

And all of this is related to how they deal with categories, which they started changing a while ago.

Also, I actually think that, before the adult dungeon, the fact that indies show up in search when they shouldn't has probably given an advantage to indie erotica writers. That's going to go away (just as "free" got separated from paid in best sellers). But in the end, Amazon still does want customers to find what they want. They just don't want them to have to deal with too much that they seriously don't want.

Camille

Yes! That will work.

And I agree that Amazon can implement all or some or one of the things we've discussed, but Amazon is such a huge company, you have to wonder if the reason they're not implementing sensible solutions is because the decision is dependent on multiple people - some of whom might be unwilling to take any action forward on this.

You're right that we can't resolve this problem in relation to Amazon, and I guess that's the most frustrating thing. That you desperately want some communication, some understanding, SOMETHING that can put your mind to ease. I sympathize with all the authors who are being affected by this. It's never fun to depend on a finicky, unhelpful party.

Which takes me back to my original point, Send to Kindle can't be used for direct distribution, but if an ebook in the Kindle file type is sold on an author's private website then the buyer downloads to their computer and sends the file to Kindle it's not the same as direct distribution. The file is being sent to Kindle from the buyer's computer just like any other document can be sent. AZon has no control over this. No?

Lol, in the end you were right, LBrent! Easier to let them download the file to their computer and email to their own email addresses. This will definitely be a better choice for individuals who aren't confident with the ability to side-load files. It's much easier to open your email account of choice and attach a file.

 

[LBrent]

I just thought of this, what if each author compiled an ebook catalog (w/links, cover, blurb, etc) of their work and put these catalogs up on AZon as permafree?

Readers searching for erotica will find your catalog and know exactly what you sell (kink) and where to buy it DIRECTLY. Plus you still benefit from AZon traffic but no one gets offended even if the catalog (with a tame/plain cover) turns up in unrelated searches.

 

[LBrent]

MsTee,
Guuurl, sometimes my dyslexic brain takes an odd turn and I end up right. Go figure. LMAO

In the end, folks looking for naughty stuff are used to having to take extra steps to get what they want. This is no different.

 

[daringnovelist]

MsTee,
Guuurl, sometimes my dyslexic brain takes an odd turn and I end up right. Go figure. LMAO

In the end, folks looking for naughty stuff are used to having to take extra steps to get what they want. This is no different.

I think the problem is that a lot of erotica authors are (accidentally) getting exposure to a whole lot of people who aren't looking for it. And there is always a proportion of those people who don't look because they are embarrassed, but when it's right there in front of them, they buy. So, no matter what you do, if you make it so it doesn't show up for people who don't want it, you will always cut into the sales of this stuff.

And that's why I said that there is no solution that will not impact sales.

However, that's also why I think it would be great if there were a "plain brown wrapper" display (with note that the contents on Explicit) for adult material when it the search is outside an adult area. It would still show up, there would still be indication of what it is, but there wouldn't be so much of the "Yikes!" factor (or "Ew!" factor) when it shows up in searches. But a good title or subtitle (combined with the explicit warning) could still catch those people who might click through for curiosity's sake. And it would work with Amazon's algorithms.

Camille

 

[Paranormal Piper]

That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.

But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*

Really? Could you link to some examples I could see? I made a few of my titles super lame because I was under the impression words like daddy, daughter, mommy, etc, always summoned the banhammer.

 

[Nihilist]

Really? Could you link to some examples I could see? I made a few of my titles super lame because I was under the impression words like daddy, daughter, mommy, etc, always summoned the banhammer.

Sure:

Spoiler

sep 21st My Best Friend's Daddy (Daddy's Sexy Secrets Vol. 2)

http://www.amazon.com/Friends-Daddy-Daddys-Secrets-ebook/dp/B00FD7P7TE/ref=sr_1_29?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503606&sr=1-29&keywords=%22daddy%22

Sep 14th The Daddy Project

http://www.amazon.com/The-Daddy-Project-ebook/dp/B00F7Q92B0/ref=sr_1_32?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503606&sr=1-32&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 19 Doing Mr Doughty - Her Best Friend's Dad: Younger Woman With An Older Man

http://www.amazon.com/Doing-Mr-Doughty-Friends-ebook/dp/B00FBH1M/ref=sr_1_20?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503577&sr=1-20&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 10th Daddy's Girl

http://www.amazon.com/Daddys-Girl-ebook/dp/B00F4F12NU/ref=sr_1_48?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503633&sr=1-48&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 12th Daddy's Baby Girl Series: Beach Play Time (ABDL, Diaper, Baby Talk, Baby Role Play, Threesome)

http://www.amazon.com/Daddys-Baby-Girl-Threesome-ebook/dp/B00F659C1C/ref=sr_1_37?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503633&sr=1-37&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 24th The Neighbor (Daddy's Sexy Secrets Vol. 4)

http://www.amazon.com/Neighbor-Daddys-Sexy-Secrets-ebook/dp/B00FEWYCS0/ref=sr_1_80?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503880&sr=1-80&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 24th Doodle Loves Daddy (Bundle #1) (DDlg DD/lg Dom-Daddy Taboo Age Play Series)

http://www.amazon.com/Doodle-Loves-Bundle-Dom-Daddy-ebook/dp/B00FEXBKFM/ref=sr_1_100?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380503939&sr=1-100&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 25th Daddy Was All The Way In Me (The Secret Daddy-Daughter Seduction) - A Short Erotic Story

http://www.amazon.com/Daddy-Secret-Daddy-Daughter-Seduction-ebook/dp/B007AWYS22/ref=sr_1_188?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380504112&sr=1-188&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 16th Daddy, Give Me More (Stepdad & Stepdaughter Fun Time) - A Short Erotic Story

http://www.amazon.com/Daddy-Give-Stepdad-Stepdaughter-ebook/dp/B007BDKICO/ref=sr_1_190?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380504112&sr=1-190&keywords=%22daddy%22

sep 18th My Stepdaughter's Naked Sexy Body (The Secret Daddy-Daughter Seduction) - A Short Erotic Story

http://www.amazon.com/Stepdaughters-Secret-Daddy-Daughter-Seduction-ebook/dp/B007AQ1OD4/ref=sr_1_198?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380504164&sr=1-198&keywords=%22daddy%22

And that was after a quick search of only new daddy stuff. There is more. A lot more.

ETA, sorry to spoiler block it, don't want offend anyone and have mods on my tail. Scroll over the black to see the titles and links.

 

[daringnovelist]

That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.

But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*

First, I'll admit right off that mine is speculation too (and I don't even write erotica) -- but this is what I'm talking about when I said that this reminds me of the "quality" sweeps they did at eHow.

I have no idea if there is favoritism here, or not. What I can say that this is exactly how it would work if they were sweeping everything and there was no favoritism.

They seem to be using human intervention to sweep the titles. That takes time, and with a field this big, and they have to start someplace. Wherever they choose to start, it will seem like they targeted that area. And maybe they did -- or not -- but that doesn't mean they are going to stop there.

And the sweep itself will be a learning process. People are trying to get through a huge amount of work quickly and they will be making judgement calls -- and at first each person will be making different calls. If this goes the way other such efforts go, they meet regularly and review questions and eventually all get on the same page. (And it could be that this Carlos guy will have his ears pinned back... but it could also be that everyone will start being as tough as he is. Depends on the team leaders and group influence. And also if his calls are causing unintended problems elsewhere.)

The thing about new files is that they weren't in the pool yet when they set up their queues to process, so they're going to be unfiltered for a while until they get into the process too. (Even Google does this with web pages. Often a new page is easier to find in search the first day it's posted, and then it disappears for a month or even 90 days into the "sandbox" while it earns its proper ranking.)

Sure, Amazon could put a filter or algorithm on it, but that would cause a lot more disruption than just letting it all through and catching it later.

I have no idea if Amazon is doing it this way. I'm just going by how massive "clean up" processes have gone elsewhere.

Camille

 

[Nihilist]

First, I'll admit right off that mine is speculation too (and I don't even write erotica) -- but this is what I'm talking about when I said that this reminds me of the "quality" sweeps they did at eHow.

I have no idea if there is favoritism here, not. What I can say that this is exactly how it would work if they were sweeping everything and there was no favoritism.

They seem to be using human intervention to sweep the titles. That takes time, and with a field this big, and they have to start someplace. Wherever they choose to start, it will seem like they targeted that area. And maybe they did -- or not -- but that doesn't mean they are going to stop there.

And the sweep itself will be a learning process. People are trying to get through a huge amount of work quickly and they will be making judgement calls -- and at first each person will be making different calls. If this goes the way other such efforts go, they meet regularly and review questions and eventually all get on the same page. (And it could be that this Carlos guy will have his ears pinned back... but it could also be that everyone will start being as tough as he is. Depends on the team leaders and group influence. And also if his calls are causing unintended problems elsewhere.)

The thing about new files is that they weren't in the pool yet when they set up their queues to process, so they're going to be unfiltered for a while until they get into the process too. (Even Google does this with web pages. Often a new page is easier to find in search the first day it's posted, and then it disappears for a month or even 90 days into the "sandbox" while it earns its proper ranking.)

Sure, Amazon could put a filter or algorithm on it, but that would cause a lot more disruption than just letting it all through and catching it later.

I have no idea if Amazon is doing it this way. I'm just going by how massive "clean up" processes have gone elsewhere.

Camille

What you're saying makes sense. It really does. I just hate that it has to be this way. I am very much the moth beating the light with its wings. I like where I am, I'm comfortable and see the light. I want to be closer, and when that light goes off, I freak out and hope it comes back on. I know it's a stupid way to look at things, but I abhor change.

I hope my post didn't come across as calling you (or anyone else) out, it was not my intent, I just wanted to warn people I really don't know. I was (and am) just speculating.

You have a lot of great points, and have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

 

[cinisajoy]

I noticed while ago that Smashwords has the adult filter on by default.  I was searching for an erotic book.  Why can't Amazon do something that simple?

 

[daringnovelist]

I hope my post didn't come across as calling you (or anyone else) out, it was not my intent, I just wanted to warn people I really don't know. I was (and am) just speculating.

You have a lot of great points, and have given me a lot to think about. Thank you.

I didn't think you were responding to anyone personally -- just to points made, which is the point of a discussion. (That's how I was responding too.)

As I said, I don't write erotica, so I don't really have a dog in this race. (Or is that a horse in this fight?) I just think that these issues are really big and we all need to get a handle on what's happening. If only for future reference when something different happens. (I mean, if what I learned watching eHow's sweeps is helpful to folks struggling with this, good. If it's just more smoke in the wind, well, at least it's a perspective.)

The thing is, even if it's a lot like eHow's sweeps, it's still going to be different in so many ways. And the solutions are different.

Camille

 

[KMatthew]

That's a good question. I had assumed it was because they have not gotten around to blocking all back titles, but there are new books coming out every day with titles including daddy, bother, sister and mother that don't get blocked. So it seems like some kind of favoritism, which brings me back to the fact that every time I'm blocked, it's from the same reviewer.

But I'm one tiny tadpole in the huge lake of erotica, so this is pure speculation and likely wrong. *shrug*

I noticed this too. They banned all of my PI stuff. So far, nothing else has been touched except this 1 two part series I had, which I'm assuming only got banned because I have the complete work published, and people who bought the two parts separate were 1 starring it, while the combined work had 4/5 stars (basically, the 1 stars for the two parts probably made it seem like a bad value for customers, which is why I assume the two separate parts were blocked but the complete published work was left alone).

I've seen a lot of other clearly titled PI stuff being published though.

 

[Nihilist]

I didn't think you were responding to anyone personally -- just to points made, which is the point of a discussion. (That's how I was responding too.)

As I said, I don't write erotica, so I don't really have a dog in this race. (Or is that a horse in this fight?) I just think that these issues are really big and we all need to get a handle on what's happening. If only for future reference when something different happens. (I mean, if what I learned watching eHow's sweeps is helpful to folks struggling with this, good. If it's just more smoke in the wind, well, at least it's a perspective.)

The thing is, even if it's a lot like eHow's sweeps, it's still going to be different in so many ways. And the solutions are different.

Camille

I'm glad. I just know tone and inflection are missing in type, so I wanted to make sure I was clear.

I do write erotica, and PI only, so my views are narrow and directly within amazon's sights (or so I assume). Wait, no, I have one shifter book, but I think that falls into their sweep as bestiality, even though my MC never gets down and dirty when he's in horse form. Again, sucks, but I get it.

Even though your view is from the outside looking it, it still holds a very valuable perspective, an objective one I couldn't have myself. eHow isn't the only sight to do such things, and I seem to remember reading complaints about smashwords refusing certain things (to be fair, they were illegal things, such as underage or unspecified {which could/might sound underage} which need to be blocked, in my opinion. The law needs to be upheld, even with art) but it does seem odd that new titles are not getting blocked before seeing the light of day (as I was, for seven titles now). Looking and seeing titles published as shortly as two days ago (my first title was blocked Aug 8th) kind of irks me.

Anywho, as others have said, amazon has the right to not sell product, but I still think PI has a huge following (as does monster) and it's a bad business move to start blocking it. Maybe making the move to another site is the right idea. Sure, amazon sells well, but once they stop letting us sell... well, they're no longer the one that sells, and I bet readers will migrate to find what they are looking for. *shrug*

Again, I could be completely wrong. I've put my money into the losing horse before, but right now, it feels like betting on a lame horse that's had previous wins. Sure, they've run well in the past, but the future is where the money's at.

 

[Honeybun]

Well... add me to the list of the fallen.  They just banned my title Daddy Substitute 1.  Now... it is pseudo-incest but only in that the story is between a barely 18 yo girl with her 20 something teacher--the only PI aspect of it is that she has some serious daddy issues in that her daddy had had some plans for her "when she got old enough" but he died before she did get old enough.  That left her to work out her issues with another older man (about 10 yrs older).

The cover (see my signature line of covers below) by the way has a girl in a miniskirt and high thigh stockings, showing her as she walks away.  The only skin it shows is her arms and some thigh between her knee and the bottom of the skirt.  My other covers of the series are far more explicit and carry the same name as the first title in the series.  So, basically, the whole series is toast.

Just a btw, the notice was from a Dani Q.  And, I have barely published in months.  I think it's been well over a month since I published #9.  I was close to finishing #10 but was feeling hesitant about it, concerned it would put me on their banning-radar.  Well, looks like I'm on it anyway.

 

[Nihilist]

Well... add me to the list of the fallen. They just banned my title Daddy Substitute 1. Now... it is pseudo-incest but only in that the story is between a barely 18 yo girl with her 20 something teacher--the only PI aspect of it is that she has some serious daddy issues in that her daddy had had some plans for her "when she got old enough" but he died before she did get old enough. That left her to work out her issues with another older man (about 10 yrs older).

The cover by the way has a girl in a miniskirt and high thigh stockings, showing her as she walks away. The only skin it shows is her arms and some thigh between her knee and the bottom of the skirt. My other covers of the series are far more explicit and carry the same name as the first title in the series. So, basically, the whole series is toast.

Just a btw, the notice was from a Dani Q. And, I have barely published in months. I think it's been well over a month since I published #9. I was close to finishing #10 but was feeling hesitant about it, concerned it would put me on their banning-radar. Well, looks like I'm on it anyway.

It *seems* (please don't quote me) that "daddy" is a target on your book's back. Or front. lol. Perhaps change that up and clean up the description from any mention of daddy and put it back through? It has worked for titles I've put out (IE "Her Brothers" became "Settling the score" and passed through the filter) Again, I could be completely wrong, but it's something to try.

When they send you the "Your book's been blocked" email, you can respond and ask them to unblock so you can make your content compliant with Amazon's Tos and put it back up for review. They encourage this practice, so use it to your advantage, and good luck!

 

[Honeybun]

It *seems* (please don't quote me) that "daddy" is a target on your book's back. Or front. lol. Perhaps change that up and clean up the description from any mention of daddy and put it back through? It has worked for titles I've put out (IE "Her Brothers" became "Settling the score" and passed through the filter) Again, I could be completely wrong, but it's something to try.

When they send you the "Your book's been blocked" email, you can respond and ask them to unblock so you can make your content compliant with Amazon's Tos and put it back up for review. They encourage this practice, so use it to your advantage, and good luck!

Thanks, Alexia... I'm so pressed for time that I hate putting it into this but I think that your suggestions are spot on. This is something I'm going to have to give some thought. I am very close to making the jump to writing some short romance novellas, not even uber sexy (if I can resist that tendency, lol).