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Week 3. Discuss ch22-32(Tyrion), read ch 33-41 (Jon) pg471/loc10588

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#1 ·
ASOS week 3. Discuss ch22 (Arya) to ch 32(Tyrion), read ch 33 (Samwell) to ch 41 (Jon), page 471/loc 10588.

1. Arya meets a little dwarf woman. This woman describes three people, the first of which is certainly Renly being killed by Melisandre’s shadowbaby. Who do you think the other two are (faceless man with drowned crow and woman under the river with red tears). NO SPOILERS if you know, or at least black them out :)

2. What do you think of the training regimen for the Unsullied? Sounds a bit like the Spartan program turned up to 11.

3. Bran hears the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Who was this? Who is the she wolf, the wild wolf, the quiet wolf, and the pup? Who is the maid with purple eyes who eventually dances with the quiet wolf?

4. Melisandre explains her two god pantheon to Davos. Is this true? Are the old gods and the 7 just aspects of this evil god? Sounds a bit judeo-christian to me.

5. Dany FINALLY has an army! Is this slave force enough to conquer Westeros? Is Arstan correct that no one will join her at the head of a slave army?

6. A lot of prophecy this section, with Arya meeting the dwarf woman, Davos hearing of Azor Ahai from Melisandre, and Dany being visited by Quaithe. What does this mean? Are the characters predestined or are these visions open to interpretation and misunderstanding?

7. Is Tyrions reluctance to bed Sansa in character? Surely he realizes that all of his whores are not necessarily willing. Has he been deluding himself all this time that these women love him?

8. Who has the Mad Huntsman caught? Did Gendry not sleep with Bella because he knows he is also a bastard of King Robert or some other reason?

9. Ygritte mentions that Mance and the wildlings were searching for the Horn of Joramun and “let all those shades loose in the world…” are the wildlings responsible for the Others and the wights?

10. Jaime has been seriously maimed. Now that he can no longer fight, will this change his character? And what lie did he tell to Tyrion? (location 7725)
 
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#2 ·
jason10mm said:
1. Arya meets a little dwarf woman. This woman describes three people, the first of which is certainly Renly being killed by Melisandre's shadowbaby. Who do you think the other two are (faceless man with drowned crow and woman under the river with red tears). NO SPOILERS if you know, or at least black them out :)
I was thinking these clues might refer to the sigils, since the burning heart and golden stag obviously did. I am not sure who the faceless man can be. My first thought was Jaqen because he can change his face, but if this is supposed to refer to a sigil, there aren't really any that apply except maybe the flayed man - but that is a stretch. The crow I thought might refer to someone from the Nights Watch - but I don't know of any who have drowned - all the drowning seemed to happen at Kings Landing. Unless that is too literal. I think the bridge is significant, but I am not sure which bridge this is. Wasn't there a bridge at the Eyrie? And there is also a bridge at the Twins, but I don't think of that bridge as swaying the way I would think of one at the Eyrie. And none of these things seem to be connected to each other - so basically I have no clue.

A woman that was a fish - I would have to think a Tully - so Catelyn or Lysa? Catelyn is in Riverrun, so she was my first thought - and Lysa is not likely to leave the Eyrie. On the other hand, there was a waterfall at the Eyrie with tears in the name - so maybe that means something. And if she is dead, why does she open her eyes?

jason10mm said:
2. What do you think of the training regimen for the Unsullied? Sounds a bit like the Spartan program turned up to 11.
I am not a big fan what these soldiers are put through - basically killing everything human in them. On the other hand, there is not likely to be any betrayal or personal interests interfering with their goal. After the Dothraki abandoned her when Drogo became too ill to continue, Dany needs some reliable forces to back her up. I don't know how much she could ever rely on any new alliances, so she doesn't have many options.

Also, these soldiers are a better fit for her than the Dothraki, who demanded to rape and pillage after victory. These soldiers will behave as she instructs them.

jason10mm said:
3. Bran hears the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Who was this? Who is the she wolf, the wild wolf, the quiet wolf, and the pup? Who is the maid with purple eyes who eventually dances with the quiet wolf?
I don't know who the Knight of the Laughing Tree is. I believe the she wolf is Lyanna, the wild wolf is Brandon, the quiet wolf is Eddard, and the pup - I guess that would have to be Benjen? I am wondering if the maid with the purple eyes is being proposed as a possible mother for Jon. I am still liking my theory that Jon is Lyanna's child and not Eddard's, but if that doesn't pan out, someone has to be his mother.

jason10mm said:
4. Melisandre explains her two god pantheon to Davos. Is this true? Are the old gods and the 7 just aspects of this evil god? Sounds a bit judeo-christian to me.
I think this is just Melisandre trying to blacken the reputation of the other gods. I don't believe the other gods are evil (if they truly exist) or that belief in them is an evil thing. And I don't believe that Melisandre's god is good based on her methods.

jason10mm said:
5. Dany FINALLY has an army! Is this slave force enough to conquer Westeros? Is Arstan correct that no one will join her at the head of a slave army?
Again, I am not sure I like the idea of Dany leading a slave army, but I guess they are in better hands with her than with anyone else. The leaders of Westeros may not like this either, but I have seen that they will accept many things if it furthers their own cause, so I don't believe that is entirely correct. I think they can be swayed to look the other way.

I am so glad that Dany did not really give up her dragon - I didn't really believe she would, but was afraid she might actually do it when it got down to the wire. But it was kind of hippocritical to take the entire lot of Unsullied and the protoges for her own ends and then to use them to punish the slavemasters for creating them in the first place. Still kind of liked to see it happen, though.

jason10mm said:
6. A lot of prophecy this section, with Arya meeting the dwarf woman, Davos hearing of Azor Ahai from Melisandre, and Dany being visited by Quaithe. What does this mean? Are the characters predestined or are these visions open to interpretation and misunderstanding?
I do get the sensation that some of the characters are destined for something (not sure what exactly). Jon and Dany are the two that really make me feel that way. But I think the visions are definitely open to interpretation and misunderstanding - the same way the comet had different meanings for different people in the last book. While we can guess at what the visions mean - we don't really know until they happen.

The message from Quaithe - at first it seemed like she was telling Dany she had to go back somewhere (I was thinking back to a place). But I wonder if it had to do with the Unsullied - telling her that she would have to move backwards morally (accepting the slaves) in order to move forward and bring something better to the realm. The whole series kind of has this theme - you have to do bad things in order to do good things. Tyrion realizes he should have killed Slynt when his father proposes Slynt head of the Nights Watch. Eddard loses his head because he doesn't accept this.

jason10mm said:
7. Is Tyrions reluctance to bed Sansa in character? Surely he realizes that all of his whores are not necessarily willing. Has he been deluding himself all this time that these women love him?
I think it is absolutely in character - but maybe I am looking at it in a somewhat romantic way. I think his whores are willing - they may find it distasteful, but they are not slaves and they willingly do it in exchange for money. I think Tyrion hopes that one day Sansa will come to his bed willingly and if she never does, he would rather have whores.

I have to say that I do hope that someday Sansa comes around about Tyrion. I would not expect that to happen soon (anymore than I would expect Sam to act heroic in the next chapter) and would be disappointed if it did because I want to believe it if it happens. But I would like to see a gradual understanding and actual relationship develop as she matures. It is enough for me right now to see that she at least acknowledges Tyrion's kindness to her and that he is a better alternative than the beautiful but cruel Joffrey.

jason10mm said:
8. Who has the Mad Huntsman caught? Did Gendry not sleep with Bella because he knows he is also a bastard of King Robert or some other reason?
I can't think of any Lannisters on Arya's list who the Mad Huntsman could have caught, yet they call him a Lannister and talk about spending his Lannister gold. But since I can't think of any actual Lannister, I wonder if it was one of the Clegane's (whoever it is, he has a brother). I thought Gregor, since they claimed that the cage might be "a little snug for the likes of you" - but it could be the other way around and be the Hound (I imagine he is also large although not as large and he would be alone and easier to catch). Also, he turns his face when a stone is thrown and Arya recognizes him - perhaps from the burn? If it is one of the Clegane's - I think it would be more interesting storywise if it were the Hound - although I would prefer to see Gregor get some of what he's been giving.

I am not seeing anything to indicate that Gendry knows he is one of Robert's bastards (but perhaps he is just playing it smart). I suspect he has developed some feelings for Arya (despite her being so young) and whatever the nature of those feelings, they get in the way of any natural urges he may have. Or maybe he doesn't like girls.

jason10mm said:
9. Ygritte mentions that Mance and the wildlings were searching for the Horn of Joramun and "let all those shades loose in the world…" are the wildlings responsible for the Others and the wights?
I didn't pick that up the first time I read it, but now I get it. Yes - I think that is what she is saying. But if they were not loose, why was it so important to find the horn? I had thought the Others and the wights were driving them south. They seem so adapted to living North of the wall, I don't know why they would want to come back South of it otherwise.

jason10mm said:
10. Jaime has been seriously maimed. Now that he can no longer fight, will this change his character? And what lie did he tell to Tyrion? (location 7725)
I think it will change his character - he will either need to learn to adapt to his handicap (learn to fight with his left hand or do something so he can hold a weapon with his right) or he will have to redefine who he is, which I think would be very tough for him. Also - I do not know how Cersei will react to this and if she doesn't react well - that could be devastating to him.

I am also wondering if his being forced together with Brienne will affect his character - especially during this difficult time. I think that while they are not two people who would normally form any kind of alliance, there is something each one could gain from the other. While I don't see this as ever being a romantic relationship (more of a potential partnership) - I think there is a little of a reversal of the Tyrion/Sansa relationship here. And he definitely has shown some compassion for her by preventing her from being raped (and trying to tell her how to cope if it should happen).

I also loved the irony of Tywin having a sword of Valerion steel welded for Jaime who will likely never be able to use it. I am wondering about the significance of the streams of crimson in the metal. Made me think of flowing blood, which I guess would be appropriate for a sword.

I had just thought the lie that he told Tyrion was about the whore that Tyrion married. I thought he meant that Tyrion loved him for trying to make him feel loved, even if it was ultimately a lie. But since the question was asked, I can't help wonder if there is another lie we don't know about yet?
 
#3 ·
I don't know how much help I'm going to be this week! Too many prophesies. Honestly, most of them barely registered when I read them. Kind of how The House of the Undying visions didn't really register. When I re-read the book, having gone through the rest of them, no doubt it will all make sense. There is only one vision in that one that made sense, but that's only because I know about "RW." It's the same with all the prophecies in this section. I hardly remember what any of them even were, nevermind trying to interpret them!

jason10mm said:
1. Arya meets a little dwarf woman. This woman describes three people, the first of which is certainly Renly being killed by Melisandre's shadowbaby. Who do you think the other two are (faceless man with drowned crow and woman under the river with red tears). NO SPOILERS if you know, or at least black them out :)
What was the Renly/shadowbaby one?

Faceless man - yes, it could be Jaqan. Aren't there faceless assassins also? Or something to that effect? I feel like they've been mentioned in the books before, though not recently. I have no idea about a drowned crow... Unless it's also related to "RW." (I don't know if Vonda knows about that event yet, so I'm sorry to be cryptic!) I believe a woman under the river might be part of that as well...

2. What do you think of the training regimen for the Unsullied? Sounds a bit like the Spartan program turned up to 11.
Well, it's way harsh, no? That entire city is made up of sadists. For a minute there I thought Dany really meant to give away her dragon, but was glad to see she actually had something else in mind. Loved that section, giving the sadistic merchants a taste of their own medicine. Serves them right. Now Dany should establish herself Queen of that city - and take her conquest of Westeros from there!

3. Bran hears the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Who was this? Who is the she wolf, the wild wolf, the quiet wolf, and the pup? Who is the maid with purple eyes who eventually dances with the quiet wolf?
No idea what the story means. But I figured it was important when Jojen asked several times if Ned ever told Bran that story. I like Vonda's theory, but I have no clue what the significance of the story is. The wolves must be Starks, but how the story relates to current events.... ???

4. Melisandre explains her two god pantheon to Davos. Is this true? Are the old gods and the 7 just aspects of this evil god? Sounds a bit judeo-christian to me.
I would not take Melisandre's word for anything. She certainly uses her powers for evil, not good. Slaying Renly was not an act of goodness. (Now, if she killed a Lannister that'd be another story!) It's just her "my religion is better than your religion" spiel. We're all familiar with how that goes! Thoros is from the same religion, but (am I jumping ahead? I'm a few chapters ahead now) he did not see Stannis in the flames as the leader of the free world. In fact, if Melisandre's god is all-knowing, doesn't he know about Dany? In spite of what the Mad King did, Dany does have a claim to the throne that is more legitimate than Stannis. Why didn't Melisandre see Dany and the dragons in the flames?

5. Dany FINALLY has an army! Is this slave force enough to conquer Westeros? Is Arstan correct that no one will join her at the head of a slave army?
I agree with Vonda. People adapt. And no doubt many of them will adapt to Dany and her slave army. Especially if the Unsullied don't loot and murder for no reason.

6. A lot of prophecy this section, with Arya meeting the dwarf woman, Davos hearing of Azor Ahai from Melisandre, and Dany being visited by Quaithe. What does this mean? Are the characters predestined or are these visions open to interpretation and misunderstanding?
Lots of interpretations and misunderstandings!

7. Is Tyrions reluctance to bed Sansa in character? Surely he realizes that all of his whores are not necessarily willing. Has he been deluding himself all this time that these women love him?
I think it is very much in character for him. As Vonda pointed out, the whores do what they do willingly (for money.) He does not force them into anything. As far as deluding himself...well, Shae is a mystery. Does she truly love him? Or is she after something? Who knows.....

8. Who has the Mad Huntsman caught? Did Gendry not sleep with Bella because he knows he is also a bastard of King Robert or some other reason?
Well, I'm a few chapters ahead, so I know who he caught. And I like it! :D As far as Gendry - I can't imagine he knows anything about his parentage. He's a bit dim. And if Arya hasn't put two and two together, I can't imagine he has. I think he has developed some sort of feelings for Arya (even though she is a child!) Or, perhaps yes, he doesn't like girls. Though I suspect Martin won't be introducing any overtly gay characters. I'm more interested in Tansy. Is this the same Tansy Lord Hoster has been dreaming about on his death bed??

9. Ygritte mentions that Mance and the wildlings were searching for the Horn of Joramun and "let all those shades loose in the world…" are the wildlings responsible for the Others and the wights?
Hard to tell at this point because we don't really know what Mance is doing and why he's going to war. He wants to free Westeros from itself? I don't think so. He has a very specific purpose and it's not freedom. So what is it?

10. Jaime has been seriously maimed. Now that he can no longer fight, will this change his character? And what lie did he tell to Tyrion? (location 7725)
Ahhh, Jaime. The lost arm will certainly change his character. If he can't fight - what can he do? He's always been a warrior, prides himself on it. Without his fighting arm... As far as lying to Tyrion - no idea.

Now what about Roose Bolton welcoming Jaime to Harrenhaal? He must know the Starks are looking for him. He doesn't arrest him. What game is Bolton playing? And what's with all the Freys there? Are they all chummy now? Scheming? And surely Bolton must know about his bastard running wild in the North and the part he played in destruction of Winterfell. Was it done on Roose's orders? With his blessing?
 
#4 ·
DYB said:
Unless it's also related to "RW." (I don't know if Vonda knows about that event yet, so I'm sorry to be cryptic!)
I know people brought up something called the red wedding in the discussion of the last book and I assume that is what RW stands for, but I don't know what that refers to. I am assuming something terrible is going to happen at the royal wedding, but have no clue what.

DYB said:
I'm more interested in Tansy. Is this the same Tansy Lord Hoster has been dreaming about on his death bed??
I wondered the same thing - if so, what is her connection to Hoster and the Tullys?

DYB said:
Now what about Roose Bolton welcoming Jaime to Harrenhaal? He must know the Starks are looking for him. He doesn't arrest him. What game is Bolton playing? And what's with all the Freys there? Are they all chummy now? Scheming? And surely Bolton must know about his bastard running wild in the North and the part he played in destruction of Winterfell. Was it done on Roose's orders? With his blessing?
Yes, I found this all very disturbing. I have always assumed that the bastard was doing his thing with Roose's blessing - both seemed to be cut from the same cloth. But the fact that there were a lot of Freys hanging out with the Boltons is troubling. Knowing that Frey is likely pissed about Robb's wedding and broken promise, are the forces in the North assembling against Robb? All we need now is for the Karstarks to show up. They want Jaime and the Boltons have him. This is not a good thing. Will the Starks lose the North completely to these thugs?
 
#5 ·
I love how dependent these kings and lords are on the fealty if their subjugate lords. With no standing national army or sense of patriotism it really is a "rule of man" instead of "rule of law". Stannis is an example of someone desperately wishing "rule of law" was true, but here it is the man people follow, not the position. So it is fascinating to see Robb getting stripped of his banner men because they don't agree with him or he offended them. These "middle class" lords can really sway with the breeze and side with whoever offers them the best deal.

Hard to imagine a modern military fighting like this where each division general could pick his side.
 
#7 ·
Yes, that is interesting.  All the Kings and Lords are basically at the mercy of...a word of honor.  And human nature is what it is.  Some are in it for the money, some for glory.  Some are truly honorable (Ned), but they are few.  It's like playing Tetris, keeping these Houses and their allegiances straight!  And a very good observation about Dany and the advantage she has of having an army like the Unsullied.  If all the Lords give away their allegiances for profit, the Unsullied simply care about ownership.  And now that Dany owns them, they (in theory) will not be changing their loyalty.  Basically, if Dany makes it to shores of Westeros with her army, everyone else is screwed!  If she inflicts enough damage on one major House, the rest might fall like dominos because she would be invincible.  Her army can not be corrupted.  (Like the Gold Cloaks in King's Landing.)

We haven't heard anything about Howland Reed, have we?  Where the heck is he?  He's probably loyal to Ned and the North, but aside from Jojen and Meera we've heard nothing of his whereabouts and what he's doing to help the King of the North.
 
#8 ·
Howland is in an info blackout, I imagine. Given that his 2 children (I don't think he has any others, right?) are off with Bran he must be terribly worried. You never hear mention of a Reed stronghold, but he must be able to receive news somehow, if not be raven then through commerce. I think the crannogmen are VERY underestimated though.

I do find it interesting that aside from Tywin most lords of Westeros seem to spend more time wrangling their own banner men than plotting against their actual enemies. Robb in particular has a real challenge keeping his army intact despite the manner in which Ned was killed (which doesn't seem to ring as loudly a rally call anymore).
 
#9 ·
jason10mm said:
I do find it interesting that aside from Tywin most lords of Westeros seem to spend more time wrangling their own banner men than plotting against their actual enemies. Robb in particular has a real challenge keeping his army intact despite the manner in which Ned was killed (which doesn't seem to ring as loudly a rally call anymore).
It's true. They stand and fall on the promises of their bannermen. And obviously those can mean nothing at all.

So why does Robb have such a difficult time keeping his father's bannermen loyal? Is it his own weakness? His youth? They were never that loyal to begin with? Is it true for everybody? Should something happen to Tywin for example, what would happen to all his bannermen? I suppose we saw what happened with Renly. As soon as he died his loyal followers switched sides in no time, including Loras. The loyalties are ever changing; lining them up is like playing Tetris!
 
#10 ·
I think the North has always been a bit more unruly. Ned speaks of having to ride against some recalcitrant lords (I think, maybe it was a grandfather who had to resubjicate the Boltons) plus there were several rebellions like the greyjoy one, so I think there are some split loyalties over Ned's support of Robert over the targaryens.

If Ned were still a captive I think Karstark would be more loyal, but I think they feel pretty ambivalent over fighting in the south versus just holding up in the North and waiting it out. Catelyn certainly isn't helping!
 
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