[jason10mm]

For this week everything before chapter 12, "Reek", is open. Read through "The Windblown", chapter 25, location 7383, 33%, stop at "The Wayward Bride".

Here are the questions. I have finished to book and some of these are answered, so if you know definitively the answer but it is farther along, keep it to yourself

1.  Wargs (skinchangers attached to wolves) can sense their pack. The Starks can as well. Is this a trait of their blood, a gift from the old gods, or bestowed on them by the Direwolves?

2. Illyrio and Varys are in cahoots (was this explicit before?). They sheltered Daenerys and Viserys, now Tyrion. Are they trying to restore the Targaryen dynasty, protect pawns that might be useful for them, or what? Is Barristan Selmy working with them as well?

3. Which wolf can Ghost not sense any longer?

4. Daenerys’ dragons are maneaters now. Was this an accident, a failure of her control, or a more ominous portent of a dragons true nature?

5. “Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings.” Who is this referring to?

6. Stannis vs Jon in haggling for the Night’s Watch resources. Who did the better job and what does it say about each as a leader?

7. “Coldhands” refers to himself as Bran’s monster. What does he mean? Or is he referring to the wizard?

8. Does the backstory of Illyrio and Varys change your impression of them? Are they honorable or self-serving?

9. What is the meaning of Tyrion’s dream that he had two heads and killed his father and Jamie?

10. “Kill the boy”. What is the significance of this phrase and what does it mean to Jon? How does he demonstrate this? And yeah, some sweet revenge, 4 books in the making!

11. Tyrion and Haldon Halfmaester swap stories of knights. What is the purpose of this exchange and why would Tyrion want to demonstrate his advanced learning?

12. It appears that Lord Frey is making a move to consolidate the North. With Tywin dead, what does this mean for his alliance with the Lannisters? Will Walder make a big to be a King himself?

13. MEGATON! Is Jon the bastard of the fisherman’s daughter in the Sisters?

14. The destruction of the Horn of Joramun (Winter). Is this a sign that R’hllor is gaining supremacy over the old gods, was the horn a fake, or is this Martin’s sly way of disposing of yet another common fantasy trope of the ultimate weapon?

15. The death of Mance Rayder. Fitting end for a turncloak and threat to the realm or ignomious death for a noble man and a crippling loss for the North?

16. Jon believes Stannis’ sword is a fake. Is Melisandre a charlatan, the true face of R’hllor, or setting Westeros up for a fall?

17. More prophecy. “The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.” What does this all mean?

18. Monsters are a recurring theme. Daenerys calls her dragons monsters (and herself), Bran calls Coldhands a monster, and Tyrion refers to himself as one (and is called one by Godric for the crime of kinslaying).  Is this merely a term for a violent creature, or a deeper meaning that beings who partake in cruelty or violence are somehow cast out from the company of mankind?

 

[mom133d (aka Liz)]

3. Which wolf can Ghost not sense any longer?

I was wondering myself. My gut leads me to think it is Nymeria. IIRC, she is running with a pack of wolves and perhaps this shields her.

4. Daenerys' dragons are maneaters now. Was this an accident, a failure of her control, or a more ominous portent of a dragons true nature?

I think it was inevitiable. Dany must have known this day would come, she couldn't have believed that they would survive on livestock forever.

5. "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." Who is this referring to?

You know, while reading I kept trying to figure it out. With your question about the dragons right above this, I'm wondering if it doesn't portent to the Targaryens, first the Mad King and then Viserys. Literally, after they are both dead, the dragons have returned. "Woken" from their eggs so to speak.

More thoughts later...

 

[PinkKindle]

Yay -- so excited to be discussing! I did go past the first section, but I haven't finished the book yet -- I think I'm still in next week's section -- but I'll only answer for the first section.

For this week everything before chapter 12, "Reek", is open. Read through "The Windblown", chapter 25, location 7383, 33%, stop at "The Wayward Bride".

Here are the questions. I have finished to book and some of these are answered, so if you know definitively the answer but it is farther along, keep it to yourself

1. Wargs (skinchangers attached to wolves) can sense their pack. The Starks can as well. Is this a trait of their blood, a gift from the old gods, or bestowed on them by the Direwolves?
Hmm, I think it's a trait of their blood, which would definitely say that Jon is a Stark (either from Lyanna or actually from Ned). I've always thought it was a "Stark thing."

2. Illyrio and Varys are in cahoots (was this explicit before?). They sheltered Daenerys and Viserys, now Tyrion. Are they trying to restore the Targaryen dynasty, protect pawns that might be useful for them, or what? Is Barristan Selmy working with them as well?
I think they're trying to respect/restore the Targs. Illyrio tells Tyrion that whole story of how Viserys was brought to Westeros to work for King Aerys, and it seems like their allegiance is to the Targs. At least that's how I read it.

3. Which wolf can Ghost not sense any longer?
Well, he "said" that 2 were dead, so I think the one he can't sense is Summer, since he's with Bran and Coldhands and I guess beyond their sense? I think it mentions Nymeria and her huge pack and Shaggydog, and of course Lady and Greywind are dead, so it would have to be Summer.

4. Daenerys' dragons are maneaters now. Was this an accident, a failure of her control, or a more ominous portent of a dragons true nature?
I'm really not sure -- I'm not sure that we know enough about dragons at this point to know! Tyrion might know with all the reading about dragons he has done . . . or at least that's my hope!

5. "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." Who is this referring to?
Mance Rayder and his infant son -- or at least that seems to be the obvious interpretation. I'm not sure who else it could be?

6. Stannis vs Jon in haggling for the Night's Watch resources. Who did the better job and what does it say about each as a leader?
Okay, I had to go back and re-read this. Honestly, to me Stannis came off almost whiny in this exchange. Jon seems very reasonable and really sticks to his guns, but Stannis seems to be making unreasonable requests. Then, when that doesn't work, he says "You are only lord commander by my sufferance. You would do well to remember that." To which Jon replies "I am lord commander because my brothers chose me." [approx. loc. 1296]. That kind of says it all to me. Stannis thinks way too much of himself, but Jon is aware of his position and is really growing into a leader.

7. "Coldhands" refers to himself as Bran's monster. What does he mean? Or is he referring to the wizard?
I think he's talking about the "Three-Eyed Crow" - the wizard. However, what Jojen says in the last sentence makes it seem like he's calling Coldhand's "Bran's monster." I guess it could be either.

8. Does the backstory of Illyrio and Varys change your impression of them? Are they honorable or self-serving?
Both. I do think they're self-serving, but I also think their allegiance is to the Targaryen's. I think if they can raise them back to power -- and benefit from it themselves -- that would be exactly what they want. I don't think they would do anything for truly altruistic reasons, though -- I think they look very closely at how they will personally benefit.

9. What is the meaning of Tyrion's dream that he had two heads and killed his father and Jamie?
I think it means that he's still of "two minds" about betraying his family (which is how he would see going to Dany). Part of him wants to kill them (of course he's already killed Tywin) and get rid of them, but part of him feels sad and guilty about this. Or maybe that's too simple.

10. "Kill the boy". What is the significance of this phrase and what does it mean to Jon? How does he demonstrate this? And yeah, some sweet revenge, 4 books in the making!
It means he has to become a man -- become hard. He can't be the boy who enjoys being with his friends, who wants people to like him, who tries to make people happy. He has to be the man, be the Lord Commander -- and the Lord Commander doesn't have friends. Oh, and take that Slynt!! That's how Starks dole out justice!!

11. Tyrion and Haldon Halfmaester swap stories of knights. What is the purpose of this exchange and why would Tyrion want to demonstrate his advanced learning?
I think that Haldon was testing -- and Tyrion was proving -- his knowledge of dragonlore and Targaryen history. That definitely seems important to Griff and his band.

12. It appears that Lord Frey is making a move to consolidate the North. With Tywin dead, what does this mean for his alliance with the Lannisters? Will Walder make a big to be a King himself?
I'm not sure what to think of this. I just re-read it, and I still don't know!

13. MEGATON! Is Jon the bastard of the fisherman's daughter in the Sisters?
Yeah, that was a big shocker -- but no, I don't think so. I'm not sure if this was a deliberate lie, or an old rumor, or what -- but it doesn't ring true to me.

14. The destruction of the Horn of Joramun (Winter). Is this a sign that R'hllor is gaining supremacy over the old gods, was the horn a fake, or is this Martin's sly way of disposing of yet another common fantasy trope of the ultimate weapon?
I think it was a fake, but I'm not 100% on that. The green and yellow fire doesn't sound like R'hllor fire though, it sounds more like wildfire. A trick?

15. The death of Mance Rayder. Fitting end for a turncloak and threat to the realm or ignomious death for a noble man and a crippling loss for the North?
Something about this whole thing seemed off to me. All the begging and crying and denying he was a king . . . I don't know. Then again, he is a deserter and a traitor, so maybe that would make him a coward?

16. Jon believes Stannis' sword is a fake. Is Melisandre a charlatan, the true face of R'hllor, or setting Westeros up for a fall?
Well, I've read a lot on this leading up to this book. I definitely think the sword is a fake -- but then again, how did she make it? It's not like Thoros's old tourney swords with real fire that consumes. It doesn't give off heat or burn its scabbard, the flammable map it's laid down on, etc. What technology do they have in Westeros to make something like that except magic? I think she does have some sort of magic, sorcery, dark arts, what have you -- but I don't think the sword is the true sword from the prophecy, and I don't think Stannis is the PtwP. I'm not sure if Melisandre really believes it, though, and is just wrong, or if she has some other game.

17. More prophecy. "The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." What does this all mean?
Hmmm . . . parts of it seem clear. Kraken is Greyjoy, and "dark flame" is maybe Stannis and Melisandre? Lion is Tyrion and griffin is Griff (BTW, should we be recognizing him at this point? Tyrion clearly does, and comments on the red hair and makes a crack about a "winged lion" (griffin) which I guess was his sigil, but I'm not recognizing him from the past? Have I forgotten, or am I not supposed to know yet?). "The sun's son" is Quentyn, but I'm not sure about "the mummer's dragon." Although, it does remind me of the puppeteers dragon and all the trouble that caused in the Hedge Knight, and the puppeteers were from Dorne, like Quentyn . . . Now, by "remember the Undying," I'm not sure if she's telling Dany to remember that that was a trick and they tried to kill her, or to remember the visions that she saw there. The perfumed seneschal -- Dany thinks that's Reznak, but it makes me think of Varys! But I definitely think the main message in here is "Trust none of them."

18. Monsters are a recurring theme. Daenerys calls her dragons monsters (and herself), Bran calls Coldhands a monster, and Tyrion refers to himself as one (and is called one by Godric for the crime of kinslaying). Is this merely a term for a violent creature, or a deeper meaning that beings who partake in cruelty or violence are somehow cast out from the company of mankind?
I'm not really sure, but it does make me think of "grotesques" and "broken things," clearly a recurrent theme through the series. And really, those who fit those categories (Tyrion, Bran, even Dany and the dragons) are who we root for. I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere, though I'm not exactly sure what it is.

 

[Lyndl]

. Wargs (skinchangers attached to wolves) can sense their pack. The Starks can as well. Is this a trait of their blood, a gift from the old gods, or bestowed on them by the Direwolves

I think it's a North thing. Starks are not the only wargs, are they? I'm in the "Lyanna is Jon's Mother" camp. Also, Bran is switching between his wolf and Hodor , so I don't think it's exclusively a wolf thing, it seems to be more a proximity deal.

Daenerys' dragons are maneaters now. Was this an accident, a failure of her control, or a more ominous portent of a dragons true nature

Are they? The only proof is a bag of charred bones. It could be part of a plot to separate her from her dragons.

"Kill the boy". What is the significance of this phrase and what does it mean to Jon? How does he demonstrate this? And yeah, some sweet revenge, 4 books in the making!

I don't think there's a deeper meaning here. I think it only means that Jon needs to stop being a boy and act like a man. He has to accept who & what he has become and act accordingly. He demonstrated it by condemning Slynt and carrying out the punishment himself. And, sadly, by realising he can't just sit and eat dinner with his friends anymore.

 

[mom133d (aka Liz)]

Also, Bran is switching between his wolf and Hodor , so I don't think it's exclusively a wolf thing, it seems to be more a proximity deal.

I think you're right judging by the prologue, at least for the first time. He had to wait for the woman to return to enter her but it seemed he could enter the other animals he had bonded with at will. Or perhaps he mentally summons them to be close enough...

I don't think there's a deeper meaning here. I think it only means that Jon needs to stop being a boy and act like a man. He has to accept who & what he has become and act accordingly. He demonstrated it by condemning Slynt and carrying out the punishment himself. And, sadly, by realising he can't just sit and eat dinner with his friends anymore.

That's what I got from it as well. Maester Aemon said the same thing to Jon before he left and I don't think he would have meant to kill the child.

 

[kansaskyle]

How are everyone's feelings toward Tyrion now that he is back in the story and freely admits to be Kingslayer and kinslayer?  He dropped a few rungs on my respect ladder.

 

[mom133d (aka Liz)]

How are everyone's feelings toward Tyrion now that he is back in the story and freely admits to be Kingslayer and kinslayer? He dropped a few rungs on my respect ladder.

I don't know. I think its part of his nature. Everyone thinks he is kingslayer and kinslayer so he just might as well admit it and use it to his advantage, just like his does his dwarfism. I still love his wit and wish I could be as quick as he.

 

[PinkKindle]

I think you're right judging by the prologue, at least for the first time. He had to wait for the woman to return to enter her but it seemed he could enter the other animals he had bonded with at will. Or perhaps he mentally summons them to be close enough...

That wasn't Bran in the prologue who wanted to enter the woman -- that was the wildling warg -- Varamyr Six-Skins (something like that). He definitely was a warg, and he had also been taught to be one, and he could enter any living thing I guess.

Since Bran can enter Hodor, I think he is a true warg -- whereas the other Starks only seem to have that affinity with their wolves. Also, he can willingly enter Summer and go off with him, whereas Jon and Arya only seem to touch their wolves in dreams (who knows about Rickon). I still think the whole affinity with the wolves is a Stark thing but that Bran is a true warg -- perhaps because of his fall and because of the Three-Eyed Crow communicating with him.

I don't know. I think its part of his nature. Everyone thinks he is kingslayer and kinslayer so he just might as well admit it and use it to his advantage, just like his does his dwarfism. I still love his wit and wish I could be as quick as he.

I agree -- I think he's using what other people think of him and making it his own. We know he didn't kill Joffrey, we know who did, so for him to claim that, which isn't even true, has to just be using what other people think of him. I still love Tyrion. I think he's depressed and hasn't really come to terms with the whole Tywin thing yet.

 

[Neekeebee]

2. Illyrio and Varys are in cahoots (was this explicit before?). They sheltered Daenerys and Viserys, now Tyrion. Are they trying to restore the Targaryen dynasty, protect pawns that might be useful for them, or what? Is Barristan Selmy working with them as well? There was that scene in AGoT where Arya overhears Illyrio plotting with Varys. (Must go back and read that.) I trust Varys more than Illyrio though. I believe Varys when he says he "serves the realm" though am still not sure what his idea of that is. Barristan is true to Dany, though.

4. Daenerys' dragons are maneaters now. Was this an accident, a failure of her control, or a more ominous portent of a dragons true nature? I also have doubts that the dragons are maneaters. Drogon was the one accused of eating the girl, but now he's disappeared and there are no more reported kills.

5. "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." Who is this referring to? I was thinking Drogo and his son (but the son was unborn), but I think I like the Mad King and Viserys theory better. I couldn't help but think how ironic it was that at the same time Stannis and crew were making fun of Mance for claiming to be "King Beyond the Wall", they were hoping killing him and his son would wake the dragon.

7. "Coldhands" refers to himself as Bran's monster. What does he mean? Or is he referring to the wizard? Does anybody else think Coldhands is Benjen?

10. "Kill the boy". What is the significance of this phrase and what does it mean to Jon? How does he demonstrate this? And yeah, some sweet revenge, 4 books in the making! It's about time!

12. It appears that Lord Frey is making a move to consolidate the North. With Tywin dead, what does this mean for his alliance with the Lannisters? Will Walder make a big to be a King himself? I am waiting for something horrific to happen to the Freys. There have been so many mentions of how great a sin it is to kill guests by the laws of all the various gods and men.

13. MEGATON! Is Jon the bastard of the fisherman's daughter in the Sisters? No way! R+L=J! Dany muses that if she had been born earlier she would have married Rhaegar's son Aegon. Wonder if this is GRRM's way of getting us open to the idea of Dany marrying Jon.

14. The destruction of the Horn of Joramun (Winter). Is this a sign that R'hllor is gaining supremacy over the old gods, was the horn a fake, or is this Martin's sly way of disposing of yet another common fantasy trope of the ultimate weapon? I think Sam has the real horn, found by Jon along with the dragonglass back in ASoS.

16. Jon believes Stannis' sword is a fake. Is Melisandre a charlatan, the true face of R'hllor, or setting Westeros up for a fall? Stannis' sword is definitely fake. Thoros, if anybody, has the real one.

Can't wait for Tyrion meeting up with Dany!

N

 

[jason10mm]

Tyrion seem really shaken by the Tysha revelation, to the point where he perseverates on it endlessly. He bears a lot of, IMHO unearned, hatred towards Jaime about his role in the affair. But then again Jaime has been enjoying his illicit affair for 20 years and three kids. Still, Jaime probably considers the entire thing a lark and a good joke, and certainly does not hold a grudge against Tyrion.

I find it interesting that Varamyr, the prologue skinchanger, says entering a human is one of the greatest evils yet Bran uses Hodor pretty casually. Slippery slope?

The "Kill the boy" bit will be interesting to watch. It is not just an admonition to "grow up", but to figuratively "murder your innocence" and get tough. No sympathy, no idealism, no honor, just pragmatic realism tempered by a lot of intestinal fortitude. We have seen where nobility gets you. Ned and Robb had it in spades. Cersei, perhaps the most self-serving character in ASOIAF, is the complete opposite yet has managed to cling to power with a tenacity that is astounding to watch. Despite all her set-backs she just keeps on bouncing back.

Upon re-reading, I think Summer, Bran's wolf, is the one Ghost can't sense. He clearly describes his black brother, Shaggydog, and little sister, Nymeria (who is also eating human flesh). But just one paragraph after the "one the white wolf could no longer sense" line he mentions sensing that beyond the wall is colder and that is where Summer is. So the "4 remains" are Ghost, Summer, Nymeria, and Shaggydog, is the "other" Grey Wind, animated like Catelyn? Creeeppyyy... Probably just the 4, 3 Ghost can sense (including himself) and one beyond the wall, Summer, but you never know...

 

[kansaskyle]

Jason posted lots of initial questions!

7. "Coldhands" refers to himself as Bran's monster. What does he mean? Or is he referring to the wizard?

I saw someone else mention they believe "Coldhands" is Benjen Stark. I get this impression also. I'm curious how this "monster" appears to be helping Bran rather than trying to kill him as all the other undead are trying to do. What makes Coldhands able to be an agent for good rather than evil?

 

[jason10mm]

Is Coldhands a wight, or an Other? Maybe he is being controlled by a skinchanger. He seems to suffer the same weakness, like he can't go through the wall. Perhaps the Others are not as unified about killing off humanity as they appear.

 

[PinkKindle]

Is Coldhands a wight, or an Other? Maybe he is being controlled by a skinchanger. He seems to suffer the same weakness, like he can't go through the wall. Perhaps the Others are not as unified about killing off humanity as they appear.

I think he's an Other -- I think. I also had the thought (hope?) that he's Benjen Stark.

I find it interesting that Varamyr, the prologue skinchanger, says entering a human is one of the greatest evils yet Bran uses Hodor pretty casually. Slippery slope?

Yes, but Varamyr only knows that's evil because he was taught -- how would Bran know it was evil? In fact, Bran does it by accident the first time (back in ASOS I think), and then finds it can be useful and starts to do it on purpose, but I don't see how he would know it was evil or anything. I don't really think it compares.

Regarding #5, the "Two kings to wake the dragon," this quote occurs in a Jon chapter and he's remembering it being said by a wounded Queen's Man while Aemon was taking care of his wounds. That's why I think he had to be talking about Mance and his son -- who else could it be? They wouldn't have any way of knowing about Drogo and Dany's baby. The mad king is long dead, and they really wouldn't have any way of knowing about Viserys (or any way of getting to him even if they thought he was still alive). They didn't have any part in killing Robert, and I don't think they would kill Stannis -- and he has no sons anyway. So, in this context, I don't see anyone else this possibly could be talking about. Jon seems to take it the same way, and he tries to explain to Stannis that Mance's son wouldn't become king on his death since the wildlings don't work that way, but Stannis and Melisandre aren't buying it.

Oh, and I like Neekeebee's theory that Sam has the real horn. I forgot there was a horn in there with all his dragonglass daggers and stuff!

Upon re-reading, I think Summer, Bran's wolf, is the one Ghost can't sense. He clearly describes his black brother, Shaggydog, and little sister, Nymeria (who is also eating human flesh). But just one paragraph after the "one the white wolf could no longer sense" line he mentions sensing that beyond the wall is colder and that is where Summer is. So the "4 remains" are Ghost, Summer, Nymeria, and Shaggydog, is the "other" Grey Wind, animated like Catelyn? Creeeppyyy... Probably just the 4, 3 Ghost can sense (including himself) and one beyond the wall, Summer, but you never know...

I still think it's Summer. Ghost knows where he is -- or at least that he's beyond the wall -- but I don't think he can sense him anymore either because he's beyond the wall, or because of Coldhands or the Three-Eyed-Crow, or because of Bran's inhabiting him so much, or something! I don't think there's an un-Grey Wind -- if I remember correctly, those lovely Freys cut off his head and Robb's head and sewed the wolf's head on Robb's shoulders . . . I think that probably means he's dead-dead.

 

[Basilius]

For this week everything before chapter 12, "Reek", is open. Read through "The Windblown", chapter 25, location 7383, 33%, stop at "The Wayward Bride".

Here are the questions. I have finished to book and some of these are answered, so if you know definitively the answer but it is farther along, keep it to yourself

6. Stannis vs Jon in haggling for the Night's Watch resources. Who did the better job and what does it say about each as a leader?

13. MEGATON! Is Jon the bastard of the fisherman's daughter in the Sisters?

14. The destruction of the Horn of Joramun (Winter). Is this a sign that R'hllor is gaining supremacy over the old gods, was the horn a fake, or is this Martin's sly way of disposing of yet another common fantasy trope of the ultimate weapon?

16. Jon believes Stannis' sword is a fake. Is Melisandre a charlatan, the true face of R'hllor, or setting Westeros up for a fall?

6: Jon won that, given the position he was in. Stannis probably would not have hesitated taking over the Night's Watch by force. He doesn't seem to place much stock in its purpose.
13: I'm all over the map on Jon's actual parentage. My opinion seems to change four times per book.
14: I think it's more an indication of Stannis' blind adherence to task. He doesn't seem to look at the big picture or the side-effects of his actions. He's the rightful King, dammit, and he'll do what it takes to secure his throne. Why can't everyone else just agree with him? I really think burning that horn is going to come back and bite somebody.
16: Melisandre has power. She's not entirely a charlatan, but there are certainly elements of showmanship in her craft. I just can't figure out who she's working for.

2. Illyrio and Varys are in cahoots (was this explicit before?). They sheltered Daenerys and Viserys, now Tyrion. Are they trying to restore the Targaryen dynasty, protect pawns that might be useful for them, or what? Is Barristan Selmy working with them as well?

4. Daenerys' dragons are maneaters now. Was this an accident, a failure of her control, or a more ominous portent of a dragons true nature?

5. "Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings." Who is this referring to?

8. Does the backstory of Illyrio and Varys change your impression of them? Are they honorable or self-serving?

12. It appears that Lord Frey is making a move to consolidate the North. With Tywin dead, what does this mean for his alliance with the Lannisters? Will Walder make a big to be a King himself?

15. The death of Mance Rayder. Fitting end for a turncloak and threat to the realm or ignomious death for a noble man and a crippling loss for the North?

18. Monsters are a recurring theme. Daenerys calls her dragons monsters (and herself), Bran calls Coldhands a monster, and Tyrion refers to himself as one (and is called one by Godric for the crime of kinslaying). Is this merely a term for a violent creature, or a deeper meaning that beings who partake in cruelty or violence are somehow cast out from the company of mankind?

2: I've actually believed Varys has been working on behalf of the Targaryens for a couple books now. He shifts too easily from one house to another to be serving any of them. Selmy's a Dornishman, isn't he? They're still in the Targaryen camp.
4: I believe it was an accident caused by Daenerys' ignorance.
5: I think it's a prophecy filled by Aerys and Viserys. The latter was legally the king after Aerys was killed, though I'm sure he didn't appreciate how he was crowned. They're dead now, and the dragons live.
8: They're both self-PREserving. I think they each have their own honor code, and if nothing else, these books teach you "good" is a matter of perspective.
12: Frankly, I think the Lannisters are effectively done as a ruling force. Yes, Tommen sits the throne, but aren't nearly all the positions of power around that moving towards Tyrells at this point?
15:
18: "Monster" seems to be used to describe anyone/thing that either is something, or behaves in a way the speaker finds unfathomable. Including themselves. I don't see the term as being anything more than that.

 

[jason10mm]

16: Melisandre has power. She's not entirely a charlatan, but there are certainly elements of showmanship in her craft. I just can't figure out who she's working for.

I've wondered about R'hllor priests for some time now. Have any other religious figures shown any magical capability? The Septas, for all their 7 gods, seem to be the most secular of the bunch, as even the Lamb's men on the Dothraki Sea have shamans and blood magic. I know there was some passing mention in one of the books about the alchemists suddenly able to make dragonfire (or at least make it more potent) and it is linked to dragons, but so far only the R'hllor priests seem to be able to do much of anything. Martin has yet to show any real divine intervention in the books so far other than suggestions of the Old God (which may just be a lingering group of Children) in things like the dire wolf pups. Seeing that the Church got a big shot in the arm in AFFC I gotta think a religious head to head is coming between the R'hllor and the Seven.

 

[kansaskyle]

I've wondered about R'hllor priests for some time now. Have any other religious figures shown any magical capability?

There was the witch dwarf who seemed to have a gift of prophecy. I'm not sure what god(s) she served though.

Also, what about the guy that gave Arya the coin and told her about Valur Margholis (spelling)? He would be a servant of the Many-Faced god. Did he use some kind of magic when he changed faces?

 

[Basilius]

Martin has yet to show any real divine intervention in the books so far other than suggestions of the Old God (which may just be a lingering group of Children) in things like the dire wolf pups. Seeing that the Church got a big shot in the arm in AFFC I gotta think a religious head to head is coming between the R'hllor and the Seven.

I would be stunned, and frankly disappointed, if any direct divine intervention appeared in the books. This far in, it would smack of desperation to include it now.

That said, yes, there pretty much has to be religious conflict at some point. Between the Seven, the Drowned God, the Old Gods, R'hllor, and the Many Faced God, and likely others I'm forgetting (who do they worship in Dorne?) religious conflict is going to be playing a part in things somewhere. You can already see tension at the Wall around it.

On the flipside, however, there doesn't seem to be any history whatsoever in Martin's world of warfare for religious reasons.

 

[jason10mm]

Yeah, I suppose it depends on whether or not you believe the visions in the flames the R'hllor priests have are messages from their god or just utilizing magic accessible to anyone with the skill. Certainly they are not the only ones with the gift of prophecy, nor are they particularly good at it Come to think of it, I can't think of a single instance where knowing a vision or prophecy actually helps a character, they usually just figure it out in retrospect. Dany in particular is laboring under the three betrayals and the fertility vision without much luck.

Anyone else feel that Martin is backsliding a bit by using too much prophecy? Seems to be that there are basically 2-3 "standard" fantasy tropes. The all-mighty prophecy fortelling something that all the characters labor for or against is definitely one of them. In fact, trying to realize or prevent the prophecy becomes the prime motivator for the series. ASOIAF, at least in the beginning, certainly seemed to duck away from any indication that there was some grand scheme at work, it reads more like a history where folks act according to their nature rather than in service to some lofty ideal or driving quest.

If everyone gets bogged down in trying to fulfill some hallucinating wench's drunken ravings I'm gonna be disappointed! 'Cause if there is a grand prophecy is a scruffy Merlinesque/Galdalfian benefactor and a Dark Overlord (TM) far behind?

 

[Seleya]

Tyrion seem really shaken by the Tysha revelation, to the point where he perseverates on it endlessly. He bears a lot of, IMHO unearned, hatred towards Jaime about his role in the affair. But then again Jaime has been enjoying his illicit affair for 20 years and three kids. Still, Jaime probably considers the entire thing a lark and a good joke, and certainly does not hold a grudge against Tyrion.

Tysha was Tyrion's first love and the only person who (in his POV) really loved him for being 'just Tyrion', he had believed Tywin's story about Tysha being a prostitute hired by Jaime only because Jaime himself confirmed it, and that had been hard enough. Now that Jaime has told him the truth Tyrion feels guity about Tysha and betrayed by the brother he had always considered a protector and a friend.
I don't think Jaime now would consider it 'a lark', IMO he feels guilty about his part in it and that's the reason why he told Tyrion (he might have been forced by Tywin to go along with his version).

Does anyone else think that Mance's behaviour at his execution sounds out of character? He could have been craven to start with, but I don't think that someone deserting from the Night's Watch for cowardice would have run north of the Wall. All that crying about a witch and not being a king...I wouldn't be surprised if a widling witch had used some kind of blood magic to have Mance 'exchange faces' with someone else and the one Stannis and Melisandre burned was the double.

Edited for typos.

 

[drenfrow]

That said, yes, there pretty much has to be religious conflict at some point. Between the Seven, the Drowned God, the Old Gods, R'hllor, and the Many Faced God, and likely others I'm forgetting (who do they worship in Dorne?) religious conflict is going to be playing a part in things somewhere. You can already see tension at the Wall around it.

The religious conflict in the books has seemed to me reminiscent of the standard idea of the one god replacing the many/old/nature gods that we see in the fantasy genre. The interesting twist is Melisandre's use of dark magic in service to R'hllor. This is definitely not your Judeo-Christian god.