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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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Bad idea to have white on red..

All valid points, but It's missing the main points besides investment. Both forms are like chalk and cheese in the market place other than the end product of both contains words wrapped up with fancy packaging with the cover..

Through the internet distribution platforms, trad-publishers have favorable access to paid marketing placement for visibility and other benefits that Amazon allow in marketing packages that are not available to self-publishers for inclusion on sales pages etc. Where self-publishers have the edge, is on pricing, but not visibility unless they pay for it, which at reduced retail prices, after ad costs, it makes it difficult to make a profit.

Bookstores are a whole different market, and the playground of trad-publishers which is around 57% of the total print book market. Self-publishers don't get a look in to make inroads into this market. Print costs for publishers are extremely low in relation to POD for self-publishers which is a disadvantage for them to compete on internet platforms. The benefit, is that they never go out of print, but then trad-publishers and small indie publishers can also use this service for their back catalogues if they retain ongoing rights. (not all do. Sometimes rights revert to the author to do with as they wish.).

So unless you are marketing a nonfiction print book, selling print books on internet digital platforms, it is difficult to compete.

Like all ventures there are winners and losers and neither method guarantees success, but there are success stories in either method of publishing.

The advantage to self-publishers is that the readers are the gatekeepers as regards crafting and quality and the enjoyment of the read, as opposed to say an unpaid college educated intern at a literary agency trawling through submissions. Or say a panel of so called experts, or a single purchasing editor. Only the cost of publishing, for editors, covers, formatting etc. could hold them back without the skills to do it themselves..
 
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Unless you have a big platform, you will have a hard time getting an advance that’s decent. You could find a home at a small indie, who will pay you an advance of $1,000 or $3,000, but at that point, you would be better selling it on your own. The biggest downside of traditional publishing, is your window for when they promote your book is about three months. After that, they’ll barely give you the time of day. So if your book is a slow starter you are kind of out of luck. Publishers (and agents) are sometimes better at finding you other rights, however (notably foreign / translation, and audio)—but you could also find someone to do that and keep 100% of the profits.
 

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People, let's take a moment to consider the source.

To OP, what kind of publisher do you call yourself, based on your above? Certainly not self or trad. I know what kind of publisher most of us here would call you.

For those of you who didn't check the source, here you go.

Services
Publishing
NEVER let finances stand in the way of getting your book published. Ask about our payment plans!

24 Hour Authority Presence

Proofread and edit your book
Format your book ready for publication
Provide you with an ISBN for the book :rolleyes:
Ensure copyright is owned by you :unsure:
Marketing guidance at the end of our promotion
Set up a KDP account for you :rolleyes:
We will get your book in the Amazon top 100 :ROFLMAO: No one can legitimately promise this
Promote to 14 HR websites
Create a short promotional video
We will ghost-write your book up to 60 pages :rolleyes: And what happens after 60 pages?
Market your book for 90 Days
Provide assistance with a book cover if needed

$10,403 CAD

Paperback & Kindle (Most Popular)

Get both our Paperback & Kindle package at a great discount price.

$4,158 CAD
Paperback

Proofread and edit your book
Format your book ready for publication
Provide you with an ISBN for the book
Ensure copyright is owned by you
Marketing guidance at the end of our promotion
Set up a KDP account for you
Promote to 14 HR websites
Create a short promotional video
Market your book for 5 Days
Provide assistance with a book cover if needed (Extra £250) :rolleyes: Because we're not paying enough already?

$2,596 CAD

Kindle

Proofread and edit your book
Format your book ready for publication
Provide you with an ISBN for the book
Ensure copyright is owned by you
Marketing guidance at the end of our promotion
Set up a KDP account for you
We will get your book in the Amazon top 100
Promote to 14 HR websites
Create a short promotional video
Market your book for 5 Days
Provide assistance with a book cover if needed (Extra £250)

$2,596 CAD

Please note - The above fee is for publishing up to 100 pages. There is an additional fee of £50 for each additional 50 pages for books larger than 100 pages. :oops:
 

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Unless you have a big platform, you will have a hard time getting an advance that’s decent. You could find a home at a small indie, who will pay you an advance of $1,000 or $3,000, but at that point, you would be better selling it on your own. The biggest downside of traditional publishing, is your window for when they promote your book is about three months. After that, they’ll barely give you the time of day.
Interesting point. Hypothetical, and I know it can be done for nothing if you have the skills, it could equally cost more than the figures I am putting forward.

Say you wanted to mimic what a trad-book goes through but at a lower cost - $200 for a cover. $400 development editor $400 line editor, $100 proofreader $100 formatter..

That's a cost of $1200 to get it published. So you could say that $1000 to $3000 is worth $2,200 to $4,200. in your hand at the date of publication. But that's not an end to it.

Like you say, you have 3 months to have some input from Amazon algos, but by themselves it doesn't do it to get a sticky cat rank to get you beyond that period for ongoing sales. Say you set a budget of $500,and reduce the price to gain sales and therefore rank to say 99c. Chances are you'll come out the other end at a loss to add to the figure above. At that point, your budget is blown, you revert to a normal price and it's down to the gods. Maybe you'll be lucky to make $100 net dollars for the rest of the year, either by not marketing or after ad costs. That makes getting picked up by an indie press or trad-publisher worthwhile at the figures you quote. You also have the added advantage of kudos at having been picked up by a publisher if you don't get one for your next book and so self-publish.

Just saying as an hypothetical. However getting that contract is nigh on impossible, but maybe worth trying for some.

EDIT @ImaWriter.

lol. Pay to get published by a publisher on a payment plan!!! Never. Should have looked first.




.
 
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To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the point to be made here is. I mean, sure, these are all true things...so...is it just an informative read? I'm unclear on the discussion. Not to be condescending or anything, I'm just reading this and my reaction is shrug yep.

Also, I do want to somewhat criticize the line, "In a world ruled by social media" Maybe I spent too much time in biology school, but I'm pretty sure the world is ruled by fungi, insects, and packs of wild dogs. Heh, part of it might just be me getting old and ranting, but seriously, social media is just a thing, and saying that a thing rules the world is more funny than it is powerful. I realize that was just a phrase. It just made me stop and go, wait, wait-wait.
 

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Recently released my 6th #1 bestseller - 7 Reasons to Write a Book.
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Bad idea to have white on red..

All valid points, but It's missing the main points besides investment. Both forms are like chalk and cheese in the market place other than the end product of both contains words wrapped up with fancy packaging with the cover..

Through the internet distribution platforms, trad-publishers have favorable access to paid marketing placement for visibility and other benefits that Amazon allow in marketing packages that are not available to self-publishers for inclusion on sales pages etc. Where self-publishers have the edge, is on pricing, but not visibility unless they pay for it, which at reduced retail prices, after ad costs, it makes it difficult to make a profit.

Bookstores are a whole different market, and the playground of trad-publishers which is around 57% of the total print book market. Self-publishers don't get a look in to make inroads into this market. Print costs for publishers are extremely low in relation to POD for self-publishers which is a disadvantage for them to compete on internet platforms. The benefit, is that they never go out of print, but then trad-publishers and small indie publishers can also use this service for their back catalogues if they retain ongoing rights. (not all do. Sometimes rights revert to the author to do with as they wish.).

So unless you are marketing a nonfiction print book, selling print books on internet digital platforms, it is difficult to compete.

Like all ventures there are winners and losers and neither method guarantees success, but there are success stories in either method of publishing.

The advantage to self-publishers is that the readers are the gatekeepers as regards crafting and quality and the enjoyment of the read, as opposed to say an unpaid college educated intern at a literary agency trawling through submissions. Or say a panel of so called experts, or a single purchasing editor. Only the cost of publishing, for editors, covers, formatting etc. could hold them back without the skills to do it themselves..
Appreciate your reply Decon
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Oh goodie, another predator looking to separate desperate authors from their money. Tell you what, sunshine, we don't take kindly to vanity publishers around here.
Unfortunately with an attitude like that you're probably one of the authors with very little book sales because you have no marketing in place. Over the last very successful 13 years I have noticed a massive increase with authors not investing in marketing. But, I will agree with you. No room for vanity publishers, I've called out plenty over the years. Thanks for your input.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what the point to be made here is. I mean, sure, these are all true things...so...is it just an informative read? I'm unclear on the discussion. Not to be condescending or anything, I'm just reading this and my reaction is shrug yep.

Also, I do want to somewhat criticize the line, "In a world ruled by social media" Maybe I spent too much time in biology school, but I'm pretty sure the world is ruled by fungi, insects, and packs of wild dogs. Heh, part of it might just be me getting old and ranting, but seriously, social media is just a thing, and saying that a thing rules the world is more funny than it is powerful. I realize that was just a phrase. It just made me stop and go, wait, wait-wait.
Thanks for your comments NikOK. I just thought new authors often get confused with the two.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
People, let's take a moment to consider the source.

To OP, what kind of publisher do you call yourself, based on your above? Certainly not self or trad. I know what kind of publisher most of us here would call you.

For those of you who didn't check the source, here you go.
Thanks for checking out my site.:rolleyes: I think it's really sad how most of the comments on here are so down on publishers charging for services. yes, it can all be done by oneself. However, it's just business. I very rarely work with authors nowadays because of their backward thinking. I've got dozens of well-known traditional published authors who are now on my books because of the way they were treated.
I help people write a book and build a business around that book, however, you wouldn't understand that. Thanks for your comments
 

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Unfortunately with an attitude like that you're probably one of the authors with very little book sales because you have no marketing in place. Over the last very successful 13 years I have noticed a massive increase with authors not investing in marketing. But, I will agree with you. No room for vanity publishers, I've called out plenty over the years. Thanks for your input.
Sorry to burst your bubble, sunshine, but I pull in well over $100,000 USD a year from my books, without any help from the likes of you or anyone else. Your services are so grossly overpriced compared to the sort of income most authors can ever expect to get over a lifetime that it makes me nauseous. I know how this business works better than you. I run my own publishing business. I know marketing better than most of you so-called gurus because I've succeeded where your sort is forced to leech off others. Take your shyte elsewhere.
 

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Unfortunately with an attitude like that you're probably one of the authors with very little book sales because you have no marketing in place. Over the last very successful 13 years I have noticed a massive increase with authors not investing in marketing. But, I will agree with you. No room for vanity publishers, I've called out plenty over the years. Thanks for your input.
How presumptuous and how bloody rude. You have no idea what this poster's sales are. Because his attitude is to stay well clear of anyone who charges for publishing, which is only common sense, you challenge that attitude because it doesn't suit you. But, like anyone who doesn't have a clear argument for their case, you resort to insults.

If there is no room for vanity publishers, what are you charging for?
Thanks for checking out my site.:rolleyes: I think it's really sad how most of the comments on here are so down on publishers charging for services. yes, it can all be done by oneself. However, it's just business. I very rarely work with authors nowadays because of their backward thinking. I've got dozens of well-known traditional published authors who are now on my books because of the way they were treated.
I help people write a book and build a business around that book, however, you wouldn't understand that. Thanks for your comments
If you have traditional authors on your books, they are likely the desperate ones whose books didn't sell and who never heard of real self publishing.

What is your purpose in posting here? Is it to insult authors because we've got more sense than to pay for your so-called services? That means we are backward thinking? Backward thinking would be not moving with the times and believing vanity publishers are a viable option. They are not and never have been. And please don't tell me you are not vanity publishers; you charge, don't you?

As to the title, the answer is simple: self-publishing = more output, more control, more money.

I couldn't read your initial post, because the print is too small and white on orange is a terrible idea.
 

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I have just looked at your website. Nearly 6,000 English pounds? There is nothing on that list of services that I cannot do myself for free. And I do mean nothing. I would like to know what the subtitle to your site is, but I can't because your photograph is placed over the writing.
 

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I have my own production sources. But the thing that stuck out and set off up the scammer alarm was the guarantee to get your book onto the Amazon top 100. There are no ethical ways to make that promise. You're risking your personal reputation by associating with someone using shady tactics. More over, they offer to set up your KDP account. I don't need to tell anyone this, but I will nonetheless: Setting up a KDP account is easy. But it does require you to input a payment method. Not safe, if you ask me. Besides, if they're a publisher as they claim on their website, why are you the one publishing on your account?
I've seen my share of vanity presses. And while I've never thought their services worth what they charge, there are many who are doing nothing more than offering a service. You have an aspiring writer who doesn't know how to go about producing a book and they offer to do it for them for a fee. There's nothing wrong with that other than it being a colossal waste of money. But what I see here is someone who wants the illusion of being a vanity press, when all they do is format and market.
Save yourself some money. There are videos online that can show you everything you need to know, step by step, that don't cost a thin dime.
 

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I have my own production sources. But the thing that stuck out and set off up the scammer alarm was the guarantee to get your book onto the Amazon top 100. There are no ethical ways to make that promise. You're risking your personal reputation by associating with someone using shady tactics. More over, they offer to set up your KDP account. I don't need to tell anyone this, but I will nonetheless: Setting up a KDP account is easy. But it does require you to input a payment method. Not safe, if you ask me. Besides, if they're a publisher as they claim on their website, why are you the one publishing on your account?
I've seen my share of vanity presses. And while I've never thought their services worth what they charge, there are many who are doing nothing more than offering a service. You have an aspiring writer who doesn't know how to go about producing a book and they offer to do it for them for a fee. There's nothing wrong with that other than it being a colossal waste of money. But what I see here is someone who wants the illusion of being a vanity press, when all they do is format and market.
Save yourself some money. There are videos online that can show you everything you need to know, step by step, that don't cost a thin dime.
I did notice that top 100 thing myself. The only way to guarantee it is by dodgy methods. I'd like the OP to explain how he does this, please.
 

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No offense intended to the OP, but for many of us, the question is a non-starter. Trad is not remotely a choice. Indie is the only thing available, and it's really what you make it.
 

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I'm failing to see what the initial thread is really about. The wall of white text on orange is basically telling most here everything they already know--so,OP, if you're simply looking for our opinions on both... Self-publishing, 100% hands down. I will admit this is only from my very limited knowledge on the trad publishing world, but the horror stories I've heard had been enough for me to steer clear and take control of my own business.

SAYING that.. becoming a hybrid author is sometimes tempting to me. But that would come from the part of me that does worry about my income stream primarily coming from one area (KDP). There are probably far better methods to expanding my income from there.

As for... what the services on the website are offering... I just want to say to any newcomer here: that's an awful lot of money for something you can do yourself, and a lot of the promises being delivered in those packages are sketchy at best (IE: the guarantee of getting your book in the top 100 of the Amazon store). Company only has a bit over 1000 likes on FB even though having been created in 2013, Instagram followers are only 623, Twitter account seems to be gone... Yep. HUGE red flags.

To our newbie authors, please consider a marketing course run by Mark Dawson, or something along those lines. $800 is far cheaper than this.
 

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SAYING that.. becoming a hybrid author is sometimes tempting to me. But that would come from the part of me that does worry about my income stream primarily coming from one area (KDP). There are probably far better methods to expanding my income from there.
As a hybrid, I can possibly give you some insight as to the advantages. The primary advantage is pedigree. It may sound shallow and superficial, but a contract with a Big 5 publisher (or is it Big 4 now) opens doors that would be closed without it. Events and awards that would have previously been out of reach are now within your grasp. While I don't care about awards, being a guest as opposed to paying to attend a Con is freakin' nice. They fly you out, get you a room, and a per diem. You get invited to teach, give lectures, workshops etc. and they'll pay you. I was paid $2000 for 1 1/2 hrs. lecture at a library. It's easier to get reviewers with sizable following to review your work. And big named authors.
Some readers, many in fact, still won't buy indie books. So you open an entirely new audience to your work. This means you can build your indie career with crossovers. Readers who never give indie a chance, now have a reason to try it.
 
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