Sorry you haven't gotten any replies yet, Susan. I'd be interested to hear about experiences with this, also, but I haven't heard of anyone using it.

Bumping and subscribing to see if anyone replies.

 

Yeah, it's a pure waste of money. Think of the audience for the print version of Publishers Weekly. Think what they will do with PW Select - the supplement of self-published listings where the (crappy) book listing will appear. The picture on that blog post had it right.

 

On the surface, it sounds great, but here's a blog post on someone's experience of it: http://www.msauret.com/pw-select-book-listing-another-waste-of-money/

Doesn't sounds so good, after all

Ouch.

Those two paragraphs is all I got for my money, and they didn't even include a cover image of my book, which I'd provided.

This issue printed 215 book listings, and only a select few included a cover image with their title.

The worst part is that PW Select charges a fee to access their information online, including this book listing. So there's only the tiniest of chances of anyone stumbling upon my book listing online.

Who in the world was actually going to discover my book in the magazine?

I'll tell you who: other advertisers.

All sellers and no buyers.

In the weeks following my PW Select listing, I didn't sell a single copy of "Amidst Traffic." Not in paper and not digital. Nothing.

I did receive two emails from people who had seen my listing, but both of those emails were from advertising reps trying to sell me ads in other book-promotion magazines. Are you crazy? I just spent money to advertise my book only to get offered to spend more money?

How did PW Select make out, on the other hands?

Let's look at it from a mathematical standpoint: $150 per listing x 215 listings = $32,250

 

Thanks everyone!! This is precisely why I love KB and the indie community in general. We can keep each other from wasting time and money on stuff like this!

#yourock

 

If you have a serious plan to target brick and mortar stores and libraries, that is a VERY good value. The demographic of PW is not casual readers. Its librarians, book store managers, and other decision makers. If your book is a POD title with no returnabily and a short discount and you spend all your time driving traffic to Amazon, then buying a PW ad is a waste of money. If, on the other hand, you have a gameplan to specifically target brick and mortar and you have good distribution, then that is a very good deal.

In the blogger's case, it's clear as day he doesn't have a plan to actually target B&M. His book is 338 pages and lists for $12.99. He's using Createspace. That means he's making next to nothing on print in distribution and the book has such a narrow margin that booksellers can't discount it.

And if I am looking at his listing correctly, instead of listing his own website for the contact information, he mentions Amazon. Kiss-of-Death. Never, ever, under any circumstances mention Amazon when trying to market to other stores. This is like trying to get a date with a girl by talking about how great your current girlfriend is.

He set himself up for failure and then is surprised why he failed. He failed to understand the target market of the advertising outlet and failed to position himself in a way that would make his book attractive to that outlet. It isn't PW's fault the ad failed. It is squarely his.

That said, I wouldn't buy a PW ad without a serious plan to target bookstores and libraries. Otherwise you are throwing money away.

 

That said, I wouldn't buy a PW ad without a serious plan to target bookstores and libraries. Otherwise you are throwing money away.

I'm curious which indie authors actually do this - run a print distribution, hire a distributor, and target bookstores and libraries. Given that ebooks are the staple of most indie authors, I'm sure it's not very many. As you say, the print distribution channel isn't geared to indies, and even if you print with LS, I'm not sure how you can effectively target bookstores and libraries. This is a serious question, because the indie authors who would most benefit from a serious plan to target bookstores and libraries are middle grade authors - and I don't see them doing that. Perhaps it's because of the capitalization? (a print run, for reasonably priced books, and then a distributor/sales force that's going to work on pitching them to bookstores?) Or the fact that the major reviewers for libraries (SLJ) still exclude indies? I don't see indies doing this as much as small publishers (and even those have difficulty, at least the ones I've seen up close). But I'd like to know what the work-arounds would be to make this possible for indies.

 

I'm curious which indie authors actually do this - run a print distribution, hire a distributor, and target bookstores and libraries. Given that ebooks are the staple of most indie authors, I'm sure it's not very many. As you say, the print distribution channel isn't geared to indies, and even if you print with LS, I'm not sure how you can effectively target bookstores and libraries. This is a serious question, because the indie authors who would most benefit from a serious plan to target bookstores and libraries are middle grade authors - and I don't see them doing that. Perhaps it's because of the capitalization? (a print run, for reasonably priced books, and then a distributor/sales force that's going to work on pitching them to bookstores?) Or the fact that the major reviewers for libraries (SLJ) still exclude indies? I don't see indies doing this as much as small publishers (and even those have difficulty, at least the ones I've seen up close). But I'd like to know what the work-arounds would be to make this possible for indies.

First, thanks so much, Susan, for asking this question!

And secondly, I agree with you and would really like to know about any viable "game plan" too because I'm a (very frustrated! ) debut MG indie author who is struggling to figure out how to reach my target audience. I'm willing to do anything that WOULD expose my book to booksellers because I find that so many kids & parents are still using stores to look for books and I don't get the advantage of online ebooks being a big staple (I wish!). I have set up LSI distribution (with my own ISBN numbers) with the intention of making it easy for bookstores & libraries to find my book...but I'm still stumped on how to actually reach them and let them know about my book in the first place!

Hsin-Yi

 

First, thanks so much, Susan, for asking this question!

And secondly, I agree with you and would really like to know about any viable "game plan" too because I'm a (very frustrated! ) debut MG indie author who is struggling to figure out how to reach my target audience. I'm willing to do anything that WOULD expose my book to booksellers because I find that so many kids & parents are still using stores to look for books and I don't get the advantage of online ebooks being a big staple (I wish!). I have set up LSI distribution (with my own ISBN numbers) with the intention of making it easy for bookstores & libraries to find my book...but I'm still stumped on how to actually reach them and let them know about my book in the first place!

Hsin-Yi

My Emblazoners group is taking a couple innovative approaches to this: 1) using Netgalley to get around the big reviewers and get our books straight into the hands of booksellers and librarians who are the connective tissue between publishers and middle grade readers, and 2) building our own network via a mailing list of librarians and booksellers. In fact, we have a giveaway going right now to encourage librarians and booksellers to sign up for the catalog we're going to put out. It's a slow-build kind of thing and we're just getting started, but being in this for the long haul makes those concerns less pressing.

 

I havent used that service and I dont recommend paying for any review.  I usually get a straight up review on the other side of PW. But I will say I am waiting longer than usual for my reviews and by the time I get one I am burned out with the whole thing. 

 

I'm curious which indie authors actually do this - run a print distribution, hire a distributor, and target bookstores and libraries. Given that ebooks are the staple of most indie authors, I'm sure it's not very many. As you say, the print distribution channel isn't geared to indies, and even if you print with LS, I'm not sure how you can effectively target bookstores and libraries. This is a serious question, because the indie authors who would most benefit from a serious plan to target bookstores and libraries are middle grade authors - and I don't see them doing that. Perhaps it's because of the capitalization? (a print run, for reasonably priced books, and then a distributor/sales force that's going to work on pitching them to bookstores?) Or the fact that the major reviewers for libraries (SLJ) still exclude indies? I don't see indies doing this as much as small publishers (and even those have difficulty, at least the ones I've seen up close). But I'd like to know what the work-arounds would be to make this possible for indies.

First, you don't need to do a print run. You can simply set up directly with LSI. Note, generally LSI won't really want to deal with you if you only have one or two titles. They will try to push you off to one of their service providers. But if you are set up as a publisher and have multiple titles you can set up directly with LSI and set your account to allow returns and set higher discounts. So there is no need to do a print run or hire a distributor. LSI will distribute through Ingrams.

It is basically a change of mindset. There are a few stores that I know stock some of our titles. I don't heavily promote to stores, but I do have some connections I've made over the years. Usually it starts when I get an email that goes "our local store is hosting a book fair. Would you be interested in offering any prize support?" (I have a form on my site that specifically encourages people to ask for swag!). It costs me $20-$30 to send a few print books and maybe some buttons or a t-shirt or whatever.

Sometimes I never hear from a place again. Sometimes I see big orders placed through distro for titles the next month. Sometimes they ask me how to get more books and I just set them up with a discount code to buy directly from CS. But I'm willing to put $30 on the table as an act of good will and accept that I might not get it back. But that is part of the change of mindset: understanding that not everything you spend money on is going to have X-return and understanding that you are building long-term connections that might not pay off for six months or a year.

It also means starting earlier with promotion. Indies tend to wait until the book is already released to start soliciting reviews. Trade publishers send our ARCs months in advance. A lot of the major review outlets don't refuse indies per se, but simply don't review titles that are already released. They expect to get a galley (in print) months before release. Indies are always trying to push off digital copies so they don't have to spend money. I "get" not wanting to spend money. But if you intend to sell print, you have to spend money on print. And that means being willing to put print copies in the hands of reviewers who expect print.

It's a lot of work and a lot of up-front investment. It CAN be done, but it is sort of an "all-or-nothing" thing. You can't treat print as just an add-on. You have to really think through your entire business and how you are going to structure it and plan accordingly.

 

First, you don't need to do a print run. You can simply set up directly with LSI. Note, generally LSI won't really want to deal with you if you only have one or two titles. They will try to push you off to one of their service providers. But if you are set up as a publisher and have multiple titles you can set up directly with LSI and set your account to allow returns and set higher discounts. So there is no need to do a print run or hire a distributor. LSI will distribute through Ingrams.

It is basically a change of mindset. There are a few stores that I know stock some of our titles. I don't heavily promote to stores, but I do have some connections I've made over the years. Usually it starts when I get an email that goes "our local store is hosting a book fair. Would you be interested in offering any prize support?" (I have a form on my site that specifically encourages people to ask for swag!). It costs me $20-$30 to send a few print books and maybe some buttons or a t-shirt or whatever.

Sometimes I never hear from a place again. Sometimes I see big orders placed through distro for titles the next month. Sometimes they ask me how to get more books and I just set them up with a discount code to buy directly from CS. But I'm willing to put $30 on the table as an act of good will and accept that I might not get it back. But that is part of the change of mindset: understanding that not everything you spend money on is going to have X-return and understanding that you are building long-term connections that might not pay off for six months or a year.

It also means starting earlier with promotion. Indies tend to wait until the book is already released to start soliciting reviews. Trade publishers send our ARCs months in advance. A lot of the major review outlets don't refuse indies per se, but simply don't review titles that are already released. They expect to get a galley (in print) months before release. Indies are always trying to push off digital copies so they don't have to spend money. I "get" not wanting to spend money. But if you intend to sell print, you have to spend money on print. And that means being willing to put print copies in the hands of reviewers who expect print.

It's a lot of work and a lot of up-front investment. It CAN be done, but it is sort of an "all-or-nothing" thing. You can't treat print as just an add-on. You have to really think through your entire business and how you are going to structure it and plan accordingly.

The print run brings down the cost of print and (I believe) makes it easier to move copies. Having returns as an option is necessary (for the bookstores to take you, not libraries), but it's not sufficient (to motivate buyers to actually buy the product).

The problem with the print channel is that it's really set up for large publishers, even when indies have access to it. Saying to indies that they need to act like large publishers (ARCs months in advance, always review in print if we're going to stock print, lots of up-front investment) is really just saying that the print distribution model isn't built for indies. Perhaps print distribution will always be a behemoth that is really only workable at large scales. But indies are innovators and I like the idea of finding ways around the standard print distribution model. There's no reason a reviewer can't review in ebook then order print copies for their library/bookshop. There's no reason why librarians can't order from CS (in fact, I know many that do). Librarians are more active in pushing this forward (finding a way to get indies onto their shelves) than bookstores, but I think that will change. In time. All that's needed is finding a more efficient way to do business, and that idea will spread.

 

First, you don't need to do a print run. You can simply set up directly with LSI. Note, generally LSI won't really want to deal with you if you only have one or two titles. They will try to push you off to one of their service providers. But if you are set up as a publisher and have multiple titles you can set up directly with LSI and set your account to allow returns and set higher discounts. So there is no need to do a print run or hire a distributor. LSI will distribute through Ingrams.

It is basically a change of mindset. There are a few stores that I know stock some of our titles. I don't heavily promote to stores, but I do have some connections I've made over the years. Usually it starts when I get an email that goes "our local store is hosting a book fair. Would you be interested in offering any prize support?" (I have a form on my site that specifically encourages people to ask for swag!). It costs me $20-$30 to send a few print books and maybe some buttons or a t-shirt or whatever.

Sometimes I never hear from a place again. Sometimes I see big orders placed through distro for titles the next month. Sometimes they ask me how to get more books and I just set them up with a discount code to buy directly from CS. But I'm willing to put $30 on the table as an act of good will and accept that I might not get it back. But that is part of the change of mindset: understanding that not everything you spend money on is going to have X-return and understanding that you are building long-term connections that might not pay off for six months or a year.

It also means starting earlier with promotion. Indies tend to wait until the book is already released to start soliciting reviews. Trade publishers send our ARCs months in advance. A lot of the major review outlets don't refuse indies per se, but simply don't review titles that are already released. They expect to get a galley (in print) months before release. Indies are always trying to push off digital copies so they don't have to spend money. I "get" not wanting to spend money. But if you intend to sell print, you have to spend money on print. And that means being willing to put print copies in the hands of reviewers who expect print.

It's a lot of work and a lot of up-front investment. It CAN be done, but it is sort of an "all-or-nothing" thing. You can't treat print as just an add-on. You have to really think through your entire business and how you are going to structure it and plan accordingly.

To add to what Julie said:

Print runs from China run ten cents up to a $1.50 per book for most mass market book runs. You're going to run into minimum run requirements of 1k or 5k.
I have friends that do business in China for themselves as manufacturers, and get contracts for suppliers in several industries. I have an aunt (by marriage) who is from China who was a top level executive, so I have ways of checking contracts and researching companies.

The problem isn't getting a print run done, it's where are you going to keep the stock when it arrives, and how are you going to distribute the books to the stores, once you have a contract with the B&M's in place? This is where the money really gets spent, shipping costs. Places like B&N will only hold so many books in their regional warehouse, and will only ship to the bookstores when a fulfillment order is sent in by the store manager. Most titles will be rotated out of stock within 2 weeks to 2 months, and those books will either be returned (expensive) to the publisher, or destroyed. Are you willing to take that gamble?

 

The print distribution model is built for booksellers. Everything about it is to support booksellers. Business is about meeting the needs of the customer. It is not about the customer meeting the needs of the business.

There's no reason a reviewer can't review in ebook then order print copies for their library/bookshop.

Except that the ebook will be formatted completely different from the print book, and there is no way to see print quality from an ebook.

Again, this is the change of mindset that I was talking about. Selling print books is not about just selling the words on the page. It is about the packaging. When WalMart asks a company for samples, they won't accept a picture of the product. They want the actual product. It doesn't matter if the toothpaste is the greatest toothpaste in the world. WalMart wants to see the whole packaging. How hard or easy is the package to open? Is the labeling on the box clear? Is the tube itself too thin and likely to puncture or risk damage?

It's the same with a book. It can be the greatest book in the world, but if you didn't realize you formatted your ebook cover at 150 dpi and used it for your print, then you have a real ugly,pixelated cover that nobody is going to pick up. Your ebook may look great, but you forgot to put page numbers in the print edition and your TOC doesn't have them either (I've seen this more times than I care to discuss! Don't use your Kindle file for CS!). Or you used sixteen point font because you were trying to make the print version look meatier (or you used 8 point font because you were trying to save money by reducing the number of pages). There are a hundred things that can be wrong with a physical book that you won't know with an ebook.

There's no reason why librarians can't order from CS

Sure, some do. Some can't because CS doesn't take purchase orders. Libraries rarely buy books using a credit card or a petty cash checkbook the librarian has access to. The bigger the library chain, the more convoluted the purchasing process.

I also think folks are missing my point. I'm not saying you have to do everything like a trade publisher. I'm saying come up with a plan that takes into account your customer (i.e. the bookstore's) needs. Unless you do a major print run, you will never be able to compete with big publishers strictly on price. So ask yourself, "what can I do for a bookstore that a big trade publisher can't/won't?")
Some things I've done in the past:
Custom editions featuring the store's logo or message on the title page: Actually easy to do with Createspace. Just don't put the version in distribution (only sell on CS) and give the store a discount code to order as they need.
Swag: As I've mentioned before, providing some t-shirts, mugs, or books for giveaways and door prizes for their in-store events.
Co-promotion: There are a couple of stores over the years I've split the cost of advertising with if they featured one of my books in the ad.
The whole point of this thread was whether or not a PW ad would be useful. If you don't want to target brick and mortar, the answer is no. That was my only point. Lots of people do very well without worrying about print. That's cool. But if you want to consider print, you can't just tell stores and libraries what they should do to accommodate you. You have to bend a little as well to accommodate them.

 

There are a hundred things that can be wrong with a physical book that you won't know with an ebook.

That's what returns are for. And since the bookseller isn't paying for it, can't imagine why that would really be an issue. The key is getting them to notice the book and want to stock it in the first place.

Sure, some do. Some can't because CS doesn't take purchase orders. Libraries rarely buy books using a credit card or a petty cash checkbook the librarian has access to. The bigger the library chain, the more convoluted the purchasing process.

Perhaps. And yet my CS book is stocked in 22 libraries (without my asking). The key is wanting to.

I also think folks are missing my point. I'm not saying you have to do everything like a trade publisher. I'm saying come up with a plan that takes into account your customer (i.e. the bookstore's) needs. Unless you do a major print run, you will never be able to compete with big publishers strictly on price. So ask yourself, "what can I do for a bookstore that a big trade publisher can't/won't?")
Some things I've done in the past:
Custom editions featuring the store's logo or message on the title page: Actually easy to do with Createspace. Just don't put the version in distribution (only sell on CS) and give the store a discount code to order as they need.
Swag: As I've mentioned before, providing some t-shirts, mugs, or books for giveaways and door prizes for their in-store events.
Co-promotion: There are a couple of stores over the years I've split the cost of advertising with if they featured one of my books in the ad.
The whole point of this thread was whether or not a PW ad would be useful. If you don't want to target brick and mortar, the answer is no. That was my only point. Lots of people do very well without worrying about print. That's cool. But if you want to consider print, you can't just tell stores and libraries what they should do to accommodate you. You have to bend a little as well to accommodate them.

These are interesting ideas - and I like interesting ideas - but they also have to be cost-effective to work. It's not about accomodating - of course you have to work with them - it's about doing it in a cost-effective manner that will actually allow you to profit from it. Because otherwise, it's not worth it. Which may be the answer for print: not worth it until the infrastructure changes.

 

The problem isn't getting a print run done, it's where are you going to keep the stock when it arrives, and how are you going to distribute the books to the stores, once you have a contract with the B&M's in place? This is where the money really gets spent, shipping costs. Places like B&N will only hold so many books in their regional warehouse, and will only ship to the bookstores when a fulfillment order is sent in by the store manager. Most titles will be rotated out of stock within 2 weeks to 2 months, and those books will either be returned (expensive) to the publisher, or destroyed. Are you willing to take that gamble?

Exactly.

 

You don't need a distributor to get your books into book stores and libraries.
If you distribute yourself, you get to keep 50 to 60 % of the sale price without sharing with a third party. And you can get your money quicker.
My book has been placed in one of the largest book stores, Powell's, and several libraries after I ccontacted them directly.
You can even distribute your paperback directly to Amazon as an independent vendor, and get paid a 70% royalty PAID IN 14 DAYS.
It's important to eliminate as many middlemen as you can.

 

You don't need a distributor to get your books into book stores and libraries.
If you distribute yourself, you get to keep 50 to 60 % of the sale price without sharing with a third party. And you can get your money quicker.
My book has been placed in one of the largest book stores, Powell's, and several libraries after I ccontacted them directly.
You can even distribute your paperback directly to Amazon as an independent vendor, and get paid a 70% royalty PAID IN 14 DAYS.
It's important to eliminate as many middlemen as you can.

Mine was stocked at some local B&N's and others where it was requested. It's also in several library systems, all through LSI. But again, you had to spend your time contacting each store directly. Is your book on automatic re-order? I doubt it. All this work for what-a buck or two? As far as I can see your book is not fiction but travel. Fiction is treated a little bit differently.

 

My Emblazoners group is taking a couple innovative approaches to this: 1) using Netgalley to get around the big reviewers and get our books straight into the hands of booksellers and librarians who are the connective tissue between publishers and middle grade readers, and 2) building our own network via a mailing list of librarians and booksellers. In fact, we have a giveaway going right now to encourage librarians and booksellers to sign up for the catalog we're going to put out. It's a slow-build kind of thing and we're just getting started, but being in this for the long haul makes those concerns less pressing.

Thanks, Susan, for sharing those suggestions! Yes, I've signed up to a Net Galley co-op and have gotten 3 very good reviews of my book already in the 3 weeks since it was enrolled there, one from a teacher saying he was going to add my book to his school's wishlist next year...so I think Net Galley is a good option.

And yes, I've been following the Emblazoner's blog too - and saw the announcement about the catalogue, which seems like a great idea. Sadly, I'm on my own at the moment - not many other fellow MG indie authors out there! - so a bit hard to get the group advantage!

You don't need a distributor to get your books into book stores and libraries.
If you distribute yourself, you get to keep 50 to 60 % of the sale price without sharing with a third party. And you can get your money quicker.
My book has been placed in one of the largest book stores, Powell's, and several libraries after I ccontacted them directly.
You can even distribute your paperback directly to Amazon as an independent vendor, and get paid a 70% royalty PAID IN 14 DAYS.
It's important to eliminate as many middlemen as you can.

But the problem is the COST of distributing it yourself (as well as storing the books) - even if you were to drive them around and deliver it yourself, you'd still have to factor in the cost of your time & petrol, etc (and some of us are on the other side of the world so it's a physical impossibility to deliver it ourselves)...and unless you happen to have a warehouse handy, you'll have to pay for some place to store your books...all on the gamble that you WILL sell all the copies you've printed. That's a big gamble if you're an unknown author without a ready fanbase waiting. Of course we all want to eliminate the middle man and most of us are not afraid of the hard work involved - but it's whether it is a feasible or worthwhile option that's the question.

Hsin-Yi