[Speaker-To-Animals]

All everyone wants from Amazon is consistency and communication. If there's a rule against something, why in the names of the Gods don't they just publish it and when they do find something against the rules, why can't they remove the book and say "we think the cover is too risque because the lingerie reveals part of the models buttocks, please correct and resubmit" rather than saying "the content, cover, or title violates our guidelines." I understand it takes time to type a thought out response, but it has to be faster than someone resubmitting the book again and again based on guesses about what's wrong with it.

 

[MegHarris]

The solution is for Amazon to institute an adult filter on the site. That is the practical solution. But then there is the issue that erotica authors won't use it. Even when I browse on Smashwords with the adult filter, I come across obviously erotic content where the author chose to not label it adult. If authors don't use the filter, the filter doesn't work.

Absolutely. If they do a filter like this, erotica authors need to use it, and to correctly label their stuff "adult." If they don't, then Amazon should lower the ban hammer. But honestly, I don't think many erotica authors would have a problem with their stuff being labeled "adult"-- as Diana & Lacey pointed out, it would actually help sales in many cases. The reason people are ducking the "adult" filter isn't because they have a problem with their stuff being labeled adult, but because it's implemented erratically, and because it makes your book really hard to find in and sort of cheats by making casual readers think your book isn't on Amazon at all. If Amazon consistently put adult books into an adult area, it'd be easier for people who want them to find them. Of course there will still be people who try to avoid it, but that can be remedied pretty easily by warning/freezing of accounts, I think.

 

[Terrence OBrien]

118'th time I've heard that suggestion and it sounds smarter each time. If every art and stock photo site (heck, any site) can insert a basic adult function like that then it should be a butt scratch of an effort for Zon. Would solve a LOT of problems (for everyone) and probably save Zon a heaping on manpower for screening and acting on tens of thousands of adult titles.

Hell, Jeff can even take credit for it and leave us a note on the main page. "To better serve the interests of all our customers we'll be instituting a new search function that..."

Everyone goes back to being happy and Jeff's a hero. Again.

How does a book get the switch set? Who does it?

"That being said, looks like Amazon does need to be more specific when explaining what is and isn't acceptable. If people clearly knew what was ok and what wan't, it would make "adapting" much easier."

The Supreme Court couldn't do it. I doubt Amazon would do any better.

Justice Potter Stewart was reduced to saying he knows obscenity when he sees it. And he was being honest. People want a subjective standard that they can use in an objective manner on subjective content of specific books. That doesn't work.

 

[dalya]

Well, then, why don't they just institute an adult on/off switch? They've been muddling around with adult titles for a long time now. Why not just do like Smashwords and have a real, proper adult filter that people can use or not, as they choose?

I know, right?! This just stuns me. The person-hours involved in manually removing titles! Readers apparently want to purchase the titles, so this doesn't serve readers.

If they would just provide more specific guidelines, so you don't have to rely on third-party information, that would also be helpful.

 

[Gone To Croatan]

If they would just provide more specific guidelines, so you don't have to rely on third-party information, that would also be helpful.

The problem with specific guidelines is that people would then say 'Hey! How come Big New Book X from Big Name Publisher Y doesn't meet these guidelines, but it's not flagged as adult?'

 

[Paranormal Piper]

Well, then, why don't they just institute an adult on/off switch? They've been muddling around with adult titles for a long time now. Why not just do like Smashwords and have a real, proper adult filter that people can use or not, as they choose?

In my opinion, Amazon will NEVER create such a filter for their site because it would also block the 'mainstream' erotica titles like 50 Shades, and that is too much money for them to pass up by making titles like that invisible.

The only way around it would be to have a softcore filter and a hardcore filter... which would then lead to endless arguments about what the definition of those two niches are.

 

[Guest]

All everyone wants from Amazon is consistency and communication. If there's a rule against something, why in the names of the Gods don't they just publish it and when they do find something against the rules, why can't they remove the book and say "we think the cover is too risque because the lingerie reveals part of the models buttocks, please correct and resubmit" rather than saying "the content, cover, or title violates our guidelines." I understand it takes time to type a thought out response, but it has to be faster than someone resubmitting the book again and again based on guesses about what's wrong with it.

There are two issues at work:

1. The long-argued about difference between 'art' and 'porn.' If you outright say "No bare breasts" does that only apply to live models, or does it also apply to covers that feature the Venus de Milo? Does it apply equally to a medical guide on how to perform a self-exam? If you outright say "no bare buttocks" does that also apply to prints of the majority of 13th-16th century oil paintings that feature nudity?

2. The unfortunate ability of too many people to use the rules as a weapon against those who write them. The more explicitly you try to write rules, the more likely some people will make it their mission to push the limits of the rule right up to the line, and then yell at YOU that since you didn't specifically say X was not OK then it is your fault.

Even between two similar covers, what might be OK on cover A won't be OK on cover B. Sometimes the line between acceptable and unacceptable isn't how much skin is shown, but the actual pose. Skin-wise, there isn't a lot of difference between a bikini and some lingerie. But there IS a difference between a rear shot of a woman playing beach volleyball in a bathing suit and a rear shot of a woman bent over a chair wearing bikini-cut panties.

 

[Just Browsing]

1. The long-argued about difference between 'art' and 'porn.' If you outright say "No bare breasts" does that only apply to live models, or does it also apply to covers that feature the Venus de Milo? Does it apply equally to a medical guide on how to perform a self-exam? If you outright say "no bare buttocks" does that also apply to prints of the majority of 13th-16th century oil paintings that feature nudity?

You gotta hand it to the Venus de Milo.

How else would she eat?

(sorry)

I do see what you're saying, but I think guidelines that are more specific than "about what you would expect" would be helpful. I've never had anything blocked, but I've had books that were fine for 2 years suddenly get the "adult" label--apparently because thongs used to be OK on covers, and now they're not. Well, I wish I'd been told that I was getting the label (rather than having to check every title I publish every week, which is what I do now), and I wish I'd been told that they were changing their guidelines. I mean, they knew they were changing. Why not notify publishers in general, or add it to their guidelines, or at least notify publishers of books that were affected?

I still would like the on/off toggle switch. I realize that would move 50 Shades over as well, but then it should be. IMHO. Surely Amazon and we (authors/publishers) want the same thing here--readers who WANT our books to be able to find them, and people who don't want to see our books to not have to see them, especially unexpectedly and while looking for something else. I can't imagine any reader who is not interested in erotica is going to come across one of my titles by accident and think, "Well, that's certainly explicit and not what I enjoy, so why not buy it?" I have nothing to gain and potentially something to lose by upsetting that reader.

 

[SBJones]

This is my guess.  Someone got promoted to a position of power and has decided to interpret the rules differently and is smacking down on what they deem inappropriate.

As a long time World of Warcraft player, I got tired of wasting time waiting on other people.  I became a multi-boxer and ran my own 5-man group.  I joined a multi-boxing community and had a lot of fun.  My efficiency went through the roof.  No waiting on dungeons, no under-geared or crappy players causing wipes and best of all.  All the loot was mine, mine, MINE!!!

Anyway.  Multi-boxing is not against the rules or an illegal way to play the game.  A lot of people hated on it, viewed it as cheating and mocked that anyone would pay $45 a month on a game.  We were basement virgins.  None of us cared.  However two, three or sometimes four times a year there would be a wave of bans that rolled through the Multi-Boxing community.  A few emails and phone calls later everyone always got their account bans lifted.  

EVERY SINGLE TIME this happened was because a new customer service game master got promoted and had the ability to "ban cheaters".

 

[Guest]

I do see what you're saying, but I think guidelines that are more specific than "about what you would expect" would be helpful. I've never had anything blocked, but I've had books that were fine for 2 years suddenly get the "adult" label--apparently because thongs used to be OK on covers, and now they're not. Well, I wish I'd been told that I was getting the label (rather than having to check every title I publish every week, which is what I do now), and I wish I'd been told that they were changing their guidelines. I mean, they knew they were changing. Why not notify publishers in general, or add it to their guidelines, or at least notify publishers of books that were affected?

Unfortunately this is a larger cultural problem at Amazon that has little to do specifically with erotica authors. Amazon's policy has always been "you will do it our way, when we say, even if we change our minds seventeen times over the course of seven days." Amazon has NEVER done a whole lot of communication with publishers. And the truth is, I can't even say this is specific to Amazon. it is a general corporate culture. Small vendors are always at the bottom of the list when dealing with huge corporations. And for all the talk about indies as a whole...we are not a single, cohesive unit. We are 100,000 tiny individual vendors and if a thousand of us vanished tommarrow Amazon would not even notice. For all the fluffy-bunny stuff they say in press releases, they do not consider us meaningful business partners. Collectively we bring in a lot of revenue, but individually we are interchangeable and Amazon has no reason to treat us otherwise because we are replaceable. That's what all the fluffy-bunny PR is for, after all. To create a continued stream of dreamers looking to be the next big thing.

But this is why I think it is important for erotica authors to work as a group. Individual emails get lost in a sea of customer service reps with various degrees of experience. A single letter signed by 30 or 40 of the genre's bestselling authors? Thank gets a bit more attention. That might be enough to force someone's hand.

Our collective strength means nothing if we don't actually use it collectively.

 

[MsTee]

Unfortunately this is a larger cultural problem at Amazon that has little to do specifically with erotica authors. Amazon's policy has always been "you will do it our way, when we say, even if we change our minds seventeen times over the course of seven days." Amazon has NEVER done a whole lot of communication with publishers. And the truth is, I can't even say this is specific to Amazon. it is a general corporate culture. Small vendors are always at the bottom of the list when dealing with huge corporations. And for all the talk about indies as a whole...we are not a single, cohesive unit. We are 100,000 tiny individual vendors and if a thousand of us vanished tommarrow Amazon would not even notice. For all the fluffy-bunny stuff they say in press releases, they do not consider us meaningful business partners. Collectively we bring in a lot of revenue, but individually we are interchangeable and Amazon has no reason to treat us otherwise because we are replaceable. That's what all the fluffy-bunny PR is for, after all. To create a continued stream of dreamers looking to be the next big thing.

But this is why I think it is important for erotica authors to work as a group. Individual emails get lost in a sea of customer service reps with various degrees of experience. A single letter signed by 30 or 40 of the genre's bestselling authors? Thank gets a bit more attention. That might be enough to force someone's hand.

Our collective strength means nothing if we don't actually use it collectively.

Julie, I agree with you, but there's the one small problem of: who will take the first step? It's all fine to say everyone must work together, but everyone will be standing around waiting on SOMEONE to make the first move towards that goal.

 

[RaeC]

Julie, I agree with you, but there's the one small problem of: who will take the first step? It's all fine to say everyone must work together, but everyone will be standing around waiting on SOMEONE to make the first move towards that goal.

It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy changes.

 

[Guest]

*****, I agree with you, but there's the one small problem of: who will take the first step? It's all fine to say everyone must work together, but everyone will be standing around waiting on SOMEONE to make the first move towards that goal.

Well it can't be me. I'm not an erotica author. I've offered to help with the language for the letter, as it is something I am actually rather adept at. But yes, it is a matter of someone showing the will to do more than complain in the forum about mean old Amazon and decide to take constructive action.

This will in all things always be the biggest limitation of indies: the inability to step up and unite constructively for a common goal. I've always joked about getting indies to work together being a lot like herding cats. But it is more true than people realize.

 

[Dormouse]

1. The long-argued about difference between 'art' and 'porn.' If you outright say "No bare breasts" does that only apply to live models, or does it also apply to covers that feature the Venus de Milo? Does it apply equally to a medical guide on how to perform a self-exam? If you outright say "no bare buttocks" does that also apply to prints of the majority of 13th-16th century oil paintings that feature nudity?

It seems that all nudity is a problem for the US version of Amazon. I don't recall who it was but one writer once mentioned that she had to change the cover of one of her historical romance stories because she'd used the image of a painting that showed a woman's breasts.

It also seems that it's mostly amazon.com that has these major issues and gets the constant complaints. I've talked to erotica writers here in Germany who mainly publish on amazon.de (in German) and they have had no problems with their covers so far. And I'm talking here about covers that really show everything like naked breasts, nipples, bare asses (not even a thong in sight), or the shaved pubic area. Some of the titles are similarly obvious where their titles are concerned.

 

[brie.mcgill]

I'll happily sign something, but I'm hardly a heavyweight at all.

Has anyone had trouble with romances that contain sex, but are clearly not erotica?

 

[MsTee]

It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy changes.

True. I've thought about her, too. She seems to be genuinely invested in this genre and may have the gumption to tackle Amazon.

Well it can't be me. I'm not an erotica author. I've offered to help with the language for the letter, as it is something I am actually rather adept at. But yes, it is a matter of someone showing the will to do more than complain in the forum about mean old Amazon and decide to take constructive action.

This will in all things always be the biggest limitation of indies: the inability to step up and unite constructively for a common goal. I've always joked about getting indies to work together being a lot like herding cats. But it is more true than people realize.

Lol! Yes, the phrase that 'there is strength in numbers' is so accurate. Sometimes, I think of the potential that could be achieved if indies were more unified and less competitive. Adopt a 'fanfiction mentality' in a way - where it's not about who has the most sales/reviews/readers, but about the genuine joy of writing, sharing your works with others, and even reccing other writers' stuff. Where you'll have authors sharing their reader base with other authors who write similar works.

I'm sorry to go off like that, but it's something that has been on my chest ever since I began seriously looking at publishing. But to get back on topic: yes, instead of us whining every Monday morning about a new change on Amazon that negatively affects us, maybe it's time we seriously consider ways we can permanently alleviate our problems.

One thought I've always had is to throw our strength behind a storefront that welcomes Erotic works. There's nothing to stop us from still having our works on Amazon, but if we focussed more of our attention and time on a company that actually respects us, maybe the decrease in income might finally get Amazon's attention.

 

[10105]

My first reaction is to see an opportunity. The "Banned in Boston" tag used to sell a lot of books. Perhaps a new startup distributor that features titles that have been banned by Amazon could get some traction. It ought to attract the buyers who want to buy those kinds of books.

The biggest technical problem would be automatic downloads to Kindles, iPads, and so on. You'd have to crack those protocols. It's possible. Calibre did it.

 

[Just Browsing]

Sadly, 1001 Nights Press does not sell enough to wield any influence. But I'm happy to help draft letters/sign things/etc. Sometimes campaigns like that have no result, of course. But this year I agitate with a group of authors about the new policies of a major publisher, and we got a meeting with the head guy--first time ever he's met with a group of authors. So far, we've only heard of one positive result of our meeting (better contract terms for an author), but that was still something.

 

[Lia]

This is making me nervous.

I don't write erotica, but my adult contemporary romance novels do have some steamy bits ...

Who's going to dictate where the line is drawn?

 

[brie.mcgill]

I just noticed that my series title (Sex, Drugs, and Cyberpunk) does not appear in searches in parentheses beside my book (which, does appear in searches). The title remains on my product page... but other authors' series titles DO appear in searches. Makes me wonder if they're weeding all kinds of targeted naughtiness out of searches?

(So, in my book info, I'm changing the series title to Love, Drugs, and Cyberpunk, to see what happens. ROFL. The real title will remain inside the book...)