[Terrence OBrien]

Most of what I have read here tells us what Amazon can do to help suppliers. I suspect Amazon is far more interested in what helps Amazon. Every business defines its scope. It decides what it will produce, sell, and buy. It defines its territory, marketing strategy, and risk parameters. The notion that any business benefits by simply expanding its scope, and is harmed by reducing its scope is false.

Likewise, there is no reason to believe that what other businesses do is good for a specific business.

The dampening of Select's value proposition is a symptom of that as well, I think.

The fact that Select enrollment continues to increase indicates lots authors see value in Select. These folks are voting with their feet.

Unless we see changes to the contrary, my current sense is that Amazon views indies as a market they can start to take for granted.

I suspect they take Random House for granted. Who isnt selling on Amazon?

 

[Kiki Wellington]

It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy changes.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't know if anyone else has, but I reached out to her and asked her if this is something she would be willing to do.

 

[Lia]

I for one am not convinced that it's paranoia. My gut feel is that Amazon is moving towards its own labels+Big 5 and away from viewing indies as a market they need to fight for. The dampening of Select's value proposition is a symptom of that as well, I think. Unless we see changes to the contrary, my current sense is that Amazon views indies as a market they can start to take for granted.

I have to agree with this.

Once upon a time, there was a site called eHow. Some freelance writers I knew put up these little "how-to" articles and got paid for ad clicks. Some of them really made bank, especially the ones with good SEO skills, to the tune of $2,500 a month and even more. But eventually, TPTB that ran the site got too many complaints about shoddy and duplicate content and started what were called "sweeps". First it was "poorly-written articles." That took care of the quality issues somewhat. But then it was "duplicate/similar titles." eHow writers started to freak out, only to be assured by TPTB that eHow wasn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Months later, TPTB finally bought out everyone who had well-earning articles, and the whole program went kaput.

I had tossed up a few articles just to test/flex my SEO skills, so I had no vested interest in eHow. But a lot of people I knew relied on it for a substantial part of their monthly income. Mind you, some of these people had blogged about "Oh, eHow is just the bestest, and just about anyone can do it!", and it reminds me of some indie authors who are really loud about how very successful they are on Amazon.

I can well see Amazon doing something like eHow, given the rumblings I've heard -- and now this. Not to say that there won't be other avenues for us indies, but we'll have to really compete for visibility.

 

[mrv01d]

I don't think it's paranoia either, but I don't want to derail the thread too much further. I suspect the way forward is going hybrid, which I dread because I am not the fastest writer on the planet. Perhaps I'll go into developmental editing, I've been told I'm good at that.

M

 

[D.L. Shutter]

It would probably have to be a heavyweight like Selena Kitt, and I know she's voiced frustrations in the past about Amazon's arbitrary policy chang

Or Summer Daniels. I don't know how many of the +50K followers (or is it likes?) of her WTRA50SOG FB page are writers but if it's even a tenth that's still 5 thousand. I bet if she pushed this she could have thousands of signatures in days if not hours. She's been a huge help for so many erotica writer's.

 

[Maya Cross]

I had a discussion with two people very highly placed in B&N about this issue in the Nook store. I mentioned the idea of an adult filter, and their response was basically, 'People don't use filters. All of our research shows that whichever way we apply a filter, the bulk of readers won't shift from the default'. I personally feel like an adult filter would only hurt my sales if it's on by default, and I can't see how it could help anyone except those with books in the adult dungeon. Right now, everyone can see your books. With a filter, less than everyone could see them, but those that do would still see every book. From a business perspective, all it does is lower your visibility.

I also wonder where you draw the line. In a situation with infinite degrees of sexiness, it's really difficult to be arbitrary about what qualifies as adult. There are tons of books that would be riding the knife's edge between romance and erotica, and it's likely to cause a massive shitstorm for every book that isn't obviously explicit or non explicit. I also wonder how things like also boughts would work.

 

[D.L. Shutter]

I'm here - happy to do it.

Well, this will be interesting to watch.

 

[Terrence OBrien]

I had a discussion with two people very highly placed in B&N about this issue in the Nook store. I mentioned the idea of an adult filter, and their response was basically, 'People don't use filters. All of our research shows that whichever way we apply a filter, the bulk of readers won't shift from the default'.

Reminds me of the V-Chip. Anyone know how to use it?

 

[Daizie]

Absolutely. If they do a filter like this, erotica authors need to use it, and to correctly label their stuff "adult." If they don't, then Amazon should lower the ban hammer. But honestly, I don't think many erotica authors would have a problem with their stuff being labeled "adult"-- as Diana & Lacey pointed out, it would actually help sales in many cases. The reason people are ducking the "adult" filter isn't because they have a problem with their stuff being labeled adult, but because it's implemented erratically, and because it makes your book really hard to find in and sort of cheats by making casual readers think your book isn't on Amazon at all. If Amazon consistently put adult books into an adult area, it'd be easier for people who want them to find them. Of course there will still be people who try to avoid it, but that can be remedied pretty easily by warning/freezing of accounts, I think.

But what about Erotic Romance or explicit NA? Should that be under the adult filter?

 

[Daizie]

I think we need to wikileak this situation and put out a general call for a current Amazon reviewer (or someone recently employed there) to spill the beans and tell us how it really works.

Details like:

Where the office is
How many people work there
How the decisions are made
What meetings are held
What training materials are used (and can we get a hold of them)
Inflow/outflow of employees
How new employees are trained
Where complaints go

and so on...

Finding out and publishing this information might do more than anything else. It's like the B&N fiasco where they were adding 10,000 in sales rank to keep bestselling erotica titles off the front page - in the end there was no evidence from someone inside the company. Surely with so many employees the community can find one person to anonymously come forward to talk about it.

I think they have to sign a non-disclosure agreement about business operations.

 

[MegHarris]

But what about Erotic Romance or explicit NA? Should that be under the adult filter?

I would put erotic romance under a filter but not "steamy" romance, personally. How to define the limits would obviously be the big issue. But the details of how to do it would clearly be up to Amazon-- and I'm sure no matter how they do it, many of us would disagree with it. Still seems preferable to random, unknowable, unpublished "guidelines" to me, though.

 

[Avis Black]

One of these days some indie author is going to write a porn novel, and Amazon will ban it.  But it will sell like Fifty Shades of Grey on B&N and Kobo, and the angst in the Amazon boardroom will be a schadenfreude-filled delight for erotica writers.  

All Amazon is doing with this policy is helping their competitors at their own expense.    

 

[ChadMck]

By a show of hands how many of us smut peddlers have seen any books blocked with the aforementioned purge? I keep waiting to hear my phone ding with an email informing me my dream is over, but nothing yet.

I think straight to the point, no bones about it, belly button bumping erotica is a powder keg waiting to blow. I just wonder if it will happen like a guillotine or a 1,000 little cuts, bleeding us out slowly.

Probably a good time to start writing romantic comedies??

 

[ghostwriter80]

By a show of hands how many of us smut peddlers have seen any books blocked with the aforementioned purge? I keep waiting to hear my phone ding with an email informing me my dream is over, but nothing yet.

I think straight to the point, no bones about it, belly button bumping erotica is a powder keg waiting to blow. I just wonder if it will happen like a guillotine or a 1,000 little cuts, bleeding us out slowly.

Probably a good time to start writing romantic comedies??

I had 106 individual titles blocked yesterday.

 

[Kalen ODonnell]

Honestly, the real issue here is and always has been the guidelines.  That more than anything else is what we need changed.  Clear, firm guidelines that don't leave room for doubt what is and isn't allowed - and if what's allowed changes, then the guidelines need to change accordingly.

Everything else is manageable, because we can adapt to accommodate a known issue.  Having no idea which variable is responsible for removal or barring of our content - that's the part that will continue to cause problems no matter what else is changed. 

 

[Vaalingrade]

The problem is that Amazon is so entrenched in its love of black boxing everything and never showing anyone how they work that they seem to be baffled--baffled, I tell you--by all these people wanting explanations and clear guidelines for their ebook service with completely open entry.

This is like if when McDonalds started driving into the coffee-to-go business, they couldn't comprehend why people might want sugar or creamer. 'zon, this is your job now. No one told you to have a wide open system, but now that you have it you actually have to, you know, tend it.

 

[Speaker-To-Animals]

Reminds me of the V-Chip. Anyone know how to use it?

Menu / Parent

Couldn't be easier. The issue isn't difficulty it's disinterest.

 

[Maya Cross]

If there was a filter on by default, I'm absolutely certain everyone who writes anything trapped behind it will see a big drop in sales. People tend to take the quickest route through any shopping experience, and if they're just searching for their next read, the bulk won't bother to turn the filter off, since they can find something to satisfy them anyway. It's not that they don't want to read explicit stuff, it's just that they read a variety and will be just as happy with something that Amazon shows them with minimal effort.

The only people who benefit from a checkbox style filter are those writing taboo stuff that currently gets hit with the adult filter.

 

[LeonardDHilleyII]

I don't know about anyone else, but I have actually seen covers with full nudity, too.  A couple of the books were by Lawrence Block.  Is this ban only for those being in the KDP Select?

 

[MegHarris]

If there was a filter on by default, I'm absolutely certain everyone who writes anything trapped behind it will see a big drop in sales. People tend to take the quickest route through any shopping experience, and if they're just searching for their next read, the bulk won't bother to turn the filter off, since they can find something to satisfy them anyway.

Maybe, maybe not. A good many people are looking actively for hot stuff. A filter might actually help people find it. I'd far rather have a filter that was off by default, though. If not it would need to be very visible, which may defeat the purpose as far as parents are concerned. It's hard to figure out how to turn off Google "safe search," for example. I wouldn't like to see Amazon bury the switch somewhere-- few people would bother to turn it on in that case.

The only people who benefit from a checkbox style filter are those writing taboo stuff that currently gets hit with the adult filter.

Right now, the "taboo stuff" is what gets filtered. But tomorrow Amazon could get complaints on other stuff and start filtering that, too. When kids can see sexy books in a search, there are always going to be complaints. I suspect we all may benefit from an on/off switch in the long haul, because it will make knee-jerk reactions and sweeping bans on Amazon's part less likely. But there's no denying that the devil is in the details. It would depend on how it was implemented, and given Amazon's handling of the "adult dungeon" I don't exactly trust them to implement a system that benefits authors.