[swolf]

simple: the law

Which law? And please be specific.

 

[SunHi Mistwalker]

Which law? And please be specific.

Hehe. He can't name any law, because the is NO LAW saying any of these books are illegal, at least not in the US. I wish that people would actually read the law before they post long rants about fictional books being illegal. I also wish that people who say they believe in freedom of expression would stand up for that principal even when it means defending someone's right to read, write, and publish content that many may find objectionable. We can't just say "we believe in freedom of speech only when it's speech we agree with." I'm just so totally disgusted with this entire situation.

 

[Terrence OBrien]

I also wish that people who say they believe in freedom of expression would stand up for that principal even when it means defending someone's right to read, write, and publish content that many may find objectionable. We can't just say "we believe in freedom of speech only when it's speech we agree with." I'm just so totally disgusted with this entire situation.

Agree. But we also have to recognize freedom of expression extends to everyone. It guarantees the right to express, and it also guarantees the right to keep quiet. That includes the right to refrain from enabling or assisting expression.

What we have in these situations are rights in conflict. Writer has a right to express. Retailer has a right to refrain from enabling the writers expression. In the US, government can't favor one over the other, so it gets hashed out between the parties, and one guy's right does not trump the other guy's right.

Nobody has any obligation to enable the writer, and nobody has any obligation to write for the enabler.

What we cannot do is stop the guy from expressing, or force the other guy to enable the expression.

When we believe in freedom of expression for everyone and everything, conflict is inevitable.

Ain't this a great country?

 

[DigitalMedia]

Hehe. He can't name any law, because the is NO LAW saying any of these books are illegal, at least not in the US.

well, the globe is not only the US.... maybe you take a look at some globus to dedect that there are plenty of other countries - countries where Amazon & Co. is selling.
Beside of that that I heavily doubt that some titles wich been available for a long time on kindle are legal in the states as well.

...and naming facts and ranting are 2 different things. Stuff like incest, CP etc. is prohibited by law in many countries - not only here
in europe. Specific enough? And it doesn`t matter - at least in my country - if you hide such themes under "fiction". And this have nothing to do with free expression - it`s just sick.

 

[Nihilist]

well, the globe is not only the US.... maybe you take a look at some globus to dedect that there are plenty of other countries - countries where Amazon & Co. is selling.
Beside of that that I heavily doubt that some titles wich been available for a long time on kindle are legal in the states as well.

...and naming facts and ranting are 2 different things. Stuff like incest, CP etc. is prohibited by law in many countries - not only here
in europe. Specific enough? And it doesn`t matter - at least in my country - if you hide such themes under "fiction". And this have nothing to do with free expression - it`s just sick.

Murder is also illegal. So we can't write and sell books about it?

 

[cinisajoy]

I so want to say something but anything I might type would just come out all wrong. I mean just because I don't like [removed] does not mean it is illegal. Distasteful, probably. Illegal no.

Might I add that zon is an American company and therefore answers to american laws.

 

[Dormouse]

Might I add that zon is an American company and therefore answers to american laws.

No quite true. The German store of Amazon (amazon.de) is bound by Luxembourg law since this is where their European office is located and in their German store they still adhere to German law which is why some books aren't available in Germany because here they are illegal. Amazon.com of course is not really impacted by that except for shipping restrictions when it comes to specific products.

 

[SunHi Mistwalker]

What we have in these situations are rights in conflict. Writer has a right to express. Retailer has a right to refrain from enabling the writers expression. In the US, government can't favor one over the other, so it gets hashed out between the parties, and one guy's right does not trump the other guy's right.

I'm certain that there is some compromise that can be made. Maybe an adult filter, some region blocks? When Kobo invited writers to sell on their platform we did so with the idea that they would adhere to their own rules and treat us with respect. But simply removing everyone's books violated our trust. And I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if they have also violated contract laws, not just with Indies but with independent booksellers who were told they would have access to self-published titles.

No quite true. The German store of Amazon (amazon.de) is bound by Luxembourg law since this is where their European office is located and in their German store they still adhere to German law which is why some books aren't available in Germany because here they are illegal. Amazon.com of course is not really impacted by that except for shipping restrictions when it comes to specific products.

I don't mind keeping certain books out of countries with laws that prohibit them, but at this point books that are perfectly legal in the US are being kept out of the US online stores because of foreign laws. I don't think Americans would be too fond of that if they knew about it.

 

[Betsy the Quilter]

Folks,

locked for the time being as there have been multiple reports.  Reading through.  Thanks for your patience.

EDIT:  I've removed some posts that crossed the line or seemed more ill tempered than necessary.

Betsy
KB Moderator
KB

 

[Terrence OBrien]

I'm certain that there is some compromise that can be made. Maybe an adult filter, some region blocks? When Kobo invited writers to sell on their platform we did so with the idea that they would adhere to their own rules and treat us with respect. But simply removing everyone's books violated our trust. And I'm not a lawyer but I wonder if they have also violated contract laws, not just with Indies but with independent booksellers who were told they would have access to self-published titles.

Sure they can compromise. They can do just about whatever they want. But its futile to invoke freedom of expression by either side since both sides have rights that conflict. They need another way to get what they want.

I don't mind keeping certain books out of countries with laws that prohibit them, but at this point books that are perfectly legal in the US are being kept out of the US online stores because of foreign laws. I don't think Americans would be too fond of that if they knew about it.

Its important to note the foreign law is not being enforced by the US government against US companies. This is being done by the company. They can sell whatever they want in the US without any consideration of foreign law. US companies do have to comply with the laws of the places they operate. So they are faced with a problem of how to structure their marketing and computer systems to efficiently comply with all the laws. Its not easy. I think the stuff we are seeing is consistent with the companies not really knowing whats on their servers.

 

[CrystalVeeyant]

Betsy I understand the job you need to do as the moderator, and thank you for doing it, but it's easy to see why tempers are flaring and lines are being crossed. These booksellers have been making money for *years* selling the exact kind of taboo titles they are now banning to save public face because a couple of media outlets have gotten shrill in their moralizing. Furthermore it is pure hypocrisy to go after our "questionable" titles with a sledgehammer and yet continue to sell big titles like "Fifty Shades" that cross the same lines our boks are being slammed for. Some of us rely on the money we're making with our writing, and even those of us who don't need the money hate to see works we've poured countless hours into suddenly put in handcuffs for a media dog & pony show.

P.S. Anyone who doesn't sign the change.org petition to Amazon is tacitly enabling censorship. We should be shouting "censorship" from the rooftops.

 

[71089]

Furthermore it is pure hypocrisy to go after our "questionable" titles with a sledgehammer and yet continue to sell big titles like "Fifty Shades" that cross the same lines our boks are being slammed for.

Uhm, as far as I know, FSOG does not feature bestiality, incest or rape. This book has two consenting adults engaging in a Sub & Dom relationship. I don't see how you can ever compare the two and why FSOG would be the same

The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well. Still, that does not mean FSOG should just be 'banned' as well just for the sake of banning everything erotic. No, that's not how it works.

I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...

oh lord, I give up.

 

[Guest]

P.S. Anyone who doesn't sign the change.org petition to Amazon is tacitly enabling censorship. We should be shouting "censorship" from the rooftops.

Well, this page is 19 pages. So I don't know which version of the petition you are talking about, but all of the petitions I have seen are useless, poorly worded, and not something I would sign because they are rambling accusations and not constructive thoughts. Please direct me to a competently constructed one that offers rational statements and doesn't degenerate into vague accusation, I might consider signing. But I see most internet petitions as easy ways for people to pretend they are doing something constructive without actually having to DO anything.

How many people signing the petition will stop shopping at Amazon? The ONLY petition that matters is the one you sign in your checkbook.

 

[cinisajoy]

Uhm, as far as I know, FSOG does not feature bestiality, incest or rape. This book has two consenting adults engaging in a Sub & Dom relationship. I don't see how you can ever compare the two and why FSOG would be the same

The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well. Still, that does not mean FSOG should just be 'banned' as well just for the sake of banning everything erotic. No, that's not how it works.

I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...

oh lord, I give up.

THIS 100% this.

And slightly off-topic or totally on topic: my psych paper is still online. It is "The differences between Abuse and BDSM".

 

[SunHi Mistwalker]

Its important to note the foreign law is not being enforced by the US government against US companies. This is being done by the company. They can sell whatever they want in the US without any consideration of foreign law. US companies do have to comply with the laws of the places they operate. So they are faced with a problem of how to structure their marketing and computer systems to efficiently comply with all the laws. Its not easy. I think the stuff we are seeing is consistent with the companies not really knowing whats on their servers.

When a company decides to remove titles from their US stores because of foreign mores and laws that has a direct impact on readers, writers and publishers. Yes, I do agree that it is a problem with their computer systems and how they distribute content, but it is also a problem with how they are handling these issues. If Kobo decided that they would remove all bibles from their stores because there was some controversy surrounding the text in a foreign country I would also be against that. And that would also unfairly impact readers who depend on Kobo to deliver content they want. However, I wouldn't mind the Bible being blocked in certain countries that prohibit the text. And I think that's a fair compromise.

well, the globe is not only the US.... maybe you take a look at some globus to dedect that there are plenty of other countries - countries where Amazon & Co. is selling.
Beside of that that I heavily doubt that some titles wich been available for a long time on kindle are legal in the states as well.

...and naming facts and ranting are 2 different things. Stuff like incest, CP etc. is prohibited by law in many countries - not only here
in europe. Specific enough? And it doesn`t matter - at least in my country - if you hide such themes under "fiction". And this have nothing to do with free expression - it`s just sick.

I just want to again reiterate that writing fiction on any theme, even themes considered taboo, is not illegal in the US. I feel compelled to say this because I hear the term illegal thrown about too easily. This fact is very important and it DOES matter here in this country because freedom of expression is priority number one here. On your last point, please clarify something. Please see the bold portion above where you mention "hiding themes." Now I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying that in fact, people writing fiction on taboo themes are in fact hiding nonfictional accounts in their fiction? I don't want to jump any guns here, but I just want to clarify it with you first.

 

[mrv01d]

Uhm, as far as I know, FSOG does not feature bestiality, incest or rape. This book has two consenting adults engaging in a Sub & Dom relationship. I don't see how you can ever compare the two and why FSOG would be the same

The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well. Still, that does not mean FSOG should just be 'banned' as well just for the sake of banning everything erotic. No, that's not how it works.

I totally understand why they would ban bestiality, incest or rape, but a consenting bdsm relationship? Sorry, but no. You cannot seriously mean to say that FSOG 'crosses the same lines' as a book that's about incest, bestiality or rape. That is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even ...

oh lord, I give up.

Clarissa, you're missing the narrative. The book accused by the Kernel of being bestiality had a dog on the cover not because anyone molested it, but because the dog was a character in the story. THEY DIDN'T READ THE BOOK. I don't believe they found any actual bestiality books at all.

The one common denominator in all these attacks on fiction is the use of buzzwords that people find universally repugnant. The media use this as a smoke shield and a tool to ensure people react just like you have.

As a result, folks adamantly agree that these books should be banned.

And fail to realize other books with perfectly acceptable content similar to FSOG are banned in the process.

In previous rounds of 'incest, rape, bestiality oh my' you had Paypal saying that bdsm was equivalent to rape and could not be sold. This would include FSOG. Shapeshifter books have been targeted this time and in the past.

As for incest, authors have gone to great lengths to write 'Woody Allen incest' which isn't illegal in real life, so why would it be illegal in fiction?

By not digging into the narrative that has been fed to you and the rest of the public, you're missing the facts of the situation.

Which is exactly what the media wants.

 

[CrystalVeeyant]

The retailers that are doing this big showdown are only doing it because of titles that included the above mentioned topics when they found out they were listed.
Erotica such as FSOG, and other types, are not the ones at fault, even though they are now the target as well.

Some of my titles that have been banned had none of those topics either; they were merely suggestive and and overzealous reviewer flagged either the title, cover, blurb or content. Now I'm having trouble getting them listed again without changing the content to remove anything that even gives the appearance of "wrong." That is CENSORSHIP and it is wrong.

BTW, "Dubious consent" titles have been pulled during this witch hunt. Fifty Shades has dubious consent but is allowed to stay up because it's a huge moneymaker. That was the point I am making. Don't be so patronizingly dismissive.

 

[CrystalVeeyant]

Well, Carlos F has struck again. A novella for which I reworked title, cover and blurb has now been censored and BLOCKED by Carlos, who should probably be working in a monastery and not reviewing erotica.

My suggestion to anyone with PI titles flagged for cover, title or blurb: DON'T resubmit right away, because someone like Carlos will probably take a magnifying glass to the actual pages and apply their own sense of "morality" to it. Wait until this blows over and the media pats Amazon on the head like a good doggie for fetching the religious right's bone for them, then resubmit.

 

[KMatthew]

But I see most internet petitions as easy ways for people to pretend they are doing something constructive without actually having to DO anything.

How many people signing the petition will stop shopping at Amazon? The ONLY petition that matters is the one you sign in your checkbook.

I honestly can't count the number of these petitions I have seen going around online that have changed absolutely nothing, which is why I never bother to sign them.

 

[Joshua Dalzelle]

I browsed quickly through this thread and I've noticed is that people are glossing over one thing: these companies have no obligation to continue to provide a platform regardless of the first amendment. This is a natural reaction and when it hits the wallet I can completely understand the anger, but no amount of petitioning or threats will have much of an effect.

If Amazon decided scifi was absurd and puerile or that specifically indie scifi was causing them problems and they yanked my books I'd be angry, but I'd have no recourse. These companies answer to their shareholders and deal in a public relations arena far bigger than the little corner of the world that is indie publishing. If segments of it became problematic for a multi-national, multi-bilion dollar corporation I would fully expect steps to be taken. In other words... we can argue for weeks about what is offensive, too offensive, or whatever but the uncomfortable truth is that the platform belongs to Amazon and the ultimate decision about what stays or goes will be theirs.

There is a reason that the method of this purge should bother everybody here... there may come a day when self-publishing in general is something Amazon's board doesn't want to be associated with and we may all wake up and our titles will have been taken down with no warning or recourse. In that regard I think it could have been handled a little better.